Re: [Curdle] Some work for the group

Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Thu, 15 December 2016 16:33 UTC

Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7019D129A5D for <curdle@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:33:39 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U4aFmZipXqvu for <curdle@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:33:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-wm0-x242.google.com (mail-wm0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBE81129A56 for <curdle@ietf.org>; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:33:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-wm0-x242.google.com with SMTP id g23so7563943wme.1 for <curdle@ietf.org>; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:33:37 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=ORJx3kiRFn2iYadytnbHS9q12TJeMMvX5RIPGrIPJBo=; b=N4YzYsE20i6mdee4a2t602cx92lgcp3ngTk2wH044MC9XSS3xla2ZORW8S6BTsXV0k dXZOXo4bGt7SbMjF8YkwjmTyId9gX2jkh5iGcl7lfi7Jf3PuXkFNFFU9gUEoO9ROgmHp NQ3GBchPWZ7S7e+hZhErCJSL/5XPprYweuxkzGU4vyleqKI6OgOlZb0VbvBfY0JHAXWt BWp/FxmeG3fomHE+qfNtFaQNptIxtf3sBJlos33wmXyOfHKR34l++WR7WC8HwnNM/oOB boK2pbsK24WU0k5YiCBfV2OE18kmL0H7yp2Q+8ZEBtExCShfS3NvVVGlBQq/lFIfOzgK LpxA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ORJx3kiRFn2iYadytnbHS9q12TJeMMvX5RIPGrIPJBo=; b=ke2uJH48bzE25CB1eXadVGxSE4JvIhRUK2kXWZyNMi0NERU8g9lV09rdC9rqqQpWOZ 61U0CPjP3NK9B1CONlr+u3UeYgB5PptQHm8zfGdM/f1vBmbXuViGkXBCls91RsBenY23 I1bMr8ieXb8yN3pEtmacOawbrNaLDrCU7dUz11P5SqFIet7psACkYk/ppnR1ruE3hpLF adRAA9pZZ59qneQRT34AqDmrcTjpIXNO3zBLoHtD4ErqpjoZUz4hfs3SbfOR1F/IYBmm CEfsort2B25VvJ4qeyTD5oHGDwYYVrJTBQ1iVKG38g4m+PqWPyH8jGlVxfzUSfKxRLmt aM7A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXInGRCSgUW3XyODpOimElgS5KrJXyWlHeKzZW8tH9bFQJiOBCGrOqZlFG31KNdpzqnUqxAebWj2diu26w==
X-Received: by 10.28.211.72 with SMTP id k69mr2177773wmg.137.1481819616277; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:33:36 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: hallam@gmail.com
Received: by 10.194.83.101 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:33:35 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <1481788992.2779.15.camel@redhat.com>
References: <D4701965.2CFAB%qdang@nist.gov> <1481295892.20432.16.camel@redhat.com> <0e1701d254c6$46509670$d2f1c350$@augustcellars.com> <1481788992.2779.15.camel@redhat.com>
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:33:35 -0500
X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3erEaZ2LS1gxWrERAlzM9GvHkb4
Message-ID: <CAMm+LwjaTJp3JeJCTqj2Fag9mMKCUk+jE6aJMsBy=b++miu9jQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos <nmav@redhat.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11470106d97cd80543b5032f"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/curdle/Yy1_2P0Yq6JxD4yS4_4JlnnDcoQ>
Cc: "Dang, Quynh (Fed)" <quynh.dang@nist.gov>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, Curdle <curdle@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Curdle] Some work for the group
X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." <curdle.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/curdle>, <mailto:curdle-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/curdle/>
List-Post: <mailto:curdle@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:curdle-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle>, <mailto:curdle-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:33:39 -0000

It looks to me as if in effect the prehash vs pure issue is going to settle
out into a situation where all signatures are pure signatures at the
specification level with an additional hash being introduced in the
packaging layer where bulk data is involved.

I have implemented most of the popular packaging formats and most of my API
calls internally turn out to be for a 'sign and digest' operation rather
than Sign-this-digest. Most cases the bulk data is being put through a
digest that is then put into some other structure for signature. There is
almost always some sort of metadata you want in there in addition to the
content.

Another way to look at this is that Ed255x is a drop in replacement for RSA
Signature that removes the restriction on the size of the input data to be
signed but not the requirement for it to be buffered. Most packaging
formats end up being a signature over a small chunk of static data which in
the case of streamed content are virtually always reference to external
data.