Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-01.txt
George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> Tue, 10 July 2018 00:23 UTC
Return-Path: <ggm@algebras.org>
X-Original-To: dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37DE130EB0 for <dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:23:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.91
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YiyQXvyrgymm for <dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60C4412F1AB for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id s14-v6so22458712wmc.1 for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EeEBbti3RcJ63lw/FA004Y6gcHkRdijsiCXBZga4KWc=; b=dKmnNOd7zIJO3NCdoXsFhbUlaMVQKbg55izVtxJ6W9+0afBm1bmj/57zjiWni45fq/ 9kS6+fL34jK2fnnbK9piWFroxwuUYdSTAabL/PtVA56qt+0GAwUieSpT2KyUW/gX5al/ A0c4M4UUD2TUounZ+SwrQfnXNsN9/PHBFq3gNIlxdYeJlAMGkTRHdIB/MD+Gt4Szjhve evSPbMWLYcpI1CQxwGaKzgU4g69leShvVJsQxtDJAXCrnCAwvPAfnQyfaLIbdy5qn7ZA ViLGyk9LX8FQKFtWBV6EDSOi+p4AD9YtZdLSwprUmMvOLxkmLKFKerbyJjxVgnmxTzq1 kgtQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EeEBbti3RcJ63lw/FA004Y6gcHkRdijsiCXBZga4KWc=; b=jHbaCAAOkM9EAVTjrtOs7+3vlcn69mgs7IB5Tr9PhnyAgDDCDvZOCFs/Gw54AOxRaU Y1iE5paTss2D3kL9UZQtXl446MD7ZpTZGFqMuOfpOAFFOBF3aSpqhg9CnqnxyTikSJnv ObdXWhbPVRxZYky6aVbHYVZcgGQT/oGtGXmVkq1U55kPF/8CIIcZIu2xEuA8oGbTwZ51 Q9QuXk0ksuguGvwkS26kIJ0+d4oWd6O7AjvZvOcT0WkWED6T8IHh9iuf8RagzKPAGdJz CgJxdkJTlPhWzaknxlshMynfp4SBecZvZzEuSRAxd1wrZ2GjFZxrWRr9zS+QWQiXwgzL 2VTQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1eYUQGvu3KNL6agVXqTEhVlwl9zKQEdRBC6xfwbqsbBSq3edPC DWmbjk/0KHITGeO3wZd1leGCZyk/VhKQfE4dCVSuvw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfiPXISzqWEdp3RwbAI8SOAdxbseMdYSnCEam8I8lRr9aiJD1tCT21MXzQtz9GKCTV6yrkCWdMPUT4gPszVpa8=
X-Received: by 2002:a1c:b6d6:: with SMTP id g205-v6mr14796496wmf.17.1531182179866; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:22:59 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 2002:a1c:12cb:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:22:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Originating-IP: [203.119.0.144]
In-Reply-To: <B3D78ECC-F4A8-4EE9-AC79-6B1E85C02D04@verisign.com>
References: <4DCC5A51-1AB0-47B6-92B5-79B6894F9A9C@verisign.com> <CAJE_bqcELQbQeHPvvEBHOxpRyWYL76BmT_-G4jW4pTnUUXFMUw@mail.gmail.com> <27C44216-581A-4991-A739-ECE8B7F8AA35@verisign.com> <884c2d11-9db0-7668-59c9-baa8574a03f7@time-travellers.org> <37873808-8354-b26b-34f4-880ea7a5f0da@nic.cz> <e9f99fce-c240-7f23-c580-1fb8bd0a0687@time-travellers.org> <20180621203116.a7kv4ysotfe7kw5k@nic.cl> <3ba53c28-8895-b0ec-badc-7ce31a8df8fc@nic.cz> <C027F687-BE37-42D4-959B-269BA2F49837@ogud.com> <CAKr6gn0BZgKGExweF2Hawh_shZSD+WxJ460YO-mbRQjg09uo_A@mail.gmail.com> <44A2CDA4-A105-41DE-BCBC-664BCB811304@verisign.com> <CAKr6gn1ALiKPXPpi6ggwiFeLMH-b15UjfWOnMY2++SyoXoiQpQ@mail.gmail.com> <B3D78ECC-F4A8-4EE9-AC79-6B1E85C02D04@verisign.com>
From: George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:22:58 +1000
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn1hM6xrupVgOENSHna1dmVp=dVBfPTkPeSFPW6tTkFQPA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Wessels, Duane" <dwessels@verisign.com>
Cc: dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/bY3fsxxbXO4NtfkWkZpU1iH-cfw>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-01.txt
X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list <dnsop.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dnsop/>
List-Post: <mailto:dnsop@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:23:07 -0000
Yea, having read things properly and been hit by a cluestick I think this is good. * the RR is a digest over canonicalized state * there is a simple method to take zone, re-canonicalize (its the DNSSEC order) and check the digest * since the RR is covered by the ZSK signing, the entire zone is understood to be in the state the publisher had when they made the digest. * if you download a zone file, with this RR, you can re-canonicalize and check easily. You have to have a DNSSEC ta over the keys used come what may, but this looks like a mechanism which given an out of band TA has no in-band DNS dependency to get a zone and check a zone. So functionally, Duanes thing is identical in outcome to PGP signing or other exterior file signatures. -G On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:05 AM, Wessels, Duane <dwessels@verisign.com> wrote: > George, > > >> On Jul 9, 2018, at 4:36 PM, George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote: >> >> There's arguments both sides about cross signing, counter signing and >> independent self-signing. If you want to promote out of band zone >> exchange, it has to be signed. The key it signs with is immaterial if >> you either direct knowledge of the PK in a PKI, or accept a trust >> anchor relationship over it, or a web of trust. > > I'm not here to promote out-of-band distribution, but I think its going > to happen (especially for the root zone) and I want something that works > just as well for in- and out-of-band distribution. > > I think it makes sense that name server software, whether recursive or > authoritative, can use a technique like this to verify zone data, whether > it is loaded from disk or received over the network. > > The key may be immaterial, but I think the barrier to implementation is > much lower if it can be done with what we already have (DNSSEC) rather than > having to drag something like PGP in. > > > >> So do you prefer (for instance) that the ZSK be used outside of DNSSEC >> to sign a detached signature over the file, irrespective or content >> order, if the file is to be made available? > > Sorry I don't quite follow. What we're suggesting is not a signature over > the file/data, but a hash over the data, which in turn can be signed. > >> Because if you basically >> prefer its *not signed* for this mode of transfer, you've stepped > > For me the mode of transfer is irrelevant. My goal is to secure the data, > not the transfer. > >> outside the model: you now demand the file is checked on load, element >> by element, against the TA, rather than being integrity checked by a >> MAC signed by the issuer, which permits eg direct binary loadable, or >> other states. > > We're not demanding anything (MAY/SHOULD vs MUST) but what we propose is, as > you say, MAC signed by the issuer. > > DW > > >> >> -G >> >> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 7:47 AM, Wessels, Duane <dwessels@verisign.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Jul 8, 2018, at 6:02 PM, George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> So how about use of a PGP key which is a payload in TXT signed over by >>>> the ZSK/KSK so the trust paths bind together? >>>> >>>> fetch one DNS record +sigs, check against the TA (which has to be a >>>> given) and then.. >>> >>> Currently in the zone digest draft DNSSEC is not mandatory. That is, the zone >>> needn't necessarily be signed and a receiver need not perform the validation if >>> they don't want to. >>> >>> Even without DNSSEC the digest gives you a little protection from accidental corruption. But not from malicious interference of course. >>> >>> It seems kind of silly to me to double up on public key cryptosystems. We already have keys attached to zones and software that generates and validates signatures. >>> >>> DW >>> >
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Petr Špaček
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Petr Špaček
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Hugo Salgado-Hernández
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shane Kerr
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… George Michaelson
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… George Michaelson
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… George Michaelson
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Petr Špaček
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Petr Špaček
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Olafur Gudmundsson
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… George Michaelson
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Olafur Gudmundsson
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… George Michaelson
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Olafur Gudmundsson
- [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-wessel… Weinberg, Matt
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… 神明達哉
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shane Kerr
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… 神明達哉
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Warren Kumari
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Roy Arends
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Ondřej Surý
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Ondřej Surý
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Ondřej Surý
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Davey Song
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Steve Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Steve Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Davey Song
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Davey Song
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Evan Hunt
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Davey Song
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Evan Hunt
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Shumon Huque
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Bob Harold
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… 神明達哉
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Warren Kumari
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… 神明達哉
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Ondřej Surý
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… tjw ietf
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Ondřej Surý
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Ondřej Surý
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Steve Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Steve Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Steve Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Evan Hunt
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Ondřej Surý
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Warren Kumari
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Evan Hunt
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Evan Hunt
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Ondřej Surý
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-we… Ondřej Surý