Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf-05.txt
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Mon, 26 March 2018 08:30 UTC
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Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 04:30:12 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
cc: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com>, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>, art@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf-05.txt
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--On Monday, March 26, 2018 01:20 -0700 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote: > > > John C Klensin wrote: >> >> --On Monday, March 26, 2018 00:07 -0700 Paul Vixie >> <paul@redbarn.org> wrote: >> >>>> ... My impression has been that, while there is nothing we >>>> can change about what is done and deployed, there has been >>>> community consensus that it is a bad idea and that changes >>>> have been made to the procedures for defining and >>>> registering new RRTYPEs to reinforce the principle that new >>>> RRTYPEs should be used and to make their use easier. >>>> "Significantly challenging over the life of the DNS" is >>>> undoubtedly correct, but that should not be, and presumably >>>> is not, the situation today or in recent years. I believe >>>> this document should not be advanced until that material is >>>> changed to be clear that use of underscore or similar >>>> conventions may be a reality but is not a desirable >>>> substitute for separate RRTYPEs (with or without that >>>> convention as appropriate). > >>> while i am sympathetic to this point of view, and even share >>> it, i know that developers of new apps learned from the SPF >>> RR example "never again" and that they can and have and will >>> continue to create new apps based on TXT with or without the >>> IETF's blessing. so i'm expecting your call for the stated >>> clarification to not reach consensus in this WG. >> >> If you are telling me I've fighting a losing battle, I >> understand that. At the same time, as I trust people have >> figured out from RFC 8324 and/or Bert's presentation in DNSOP >> last week, I think there is reason for concern that >> continuing to add features, especially features with either >> high intrinsic complexity or significant kludge properties, >> may eventually push things over some virtual cliff. That >> makes the fight worth fighting even if most of the battles >> are lost. > > i wish that reality as we will experience it was even halfway > as cut or dried as you describe here. however, just as the > worst abuser of "fake news" later became the most common > accuser of that abuse in others, especially where the news > _wasn't_ fake, so it is that your desire to create new RRTYPEs > in preference to "just use TXT and allocate a new underbar'd > name" will be called, wrongly and unfairly as i see it, but > that won't matter, will be called, "unnec'y increase in system > complexity." therefore, the battle you'll lose will be around > who gets to call which thing by what name, and not around what > problems should be avoided. the shape of this conference table > has been decided -- your remaining decision is where you will > allow yourself to be seated. Again, Paul, I fear you are right, but that does not eliminate my sense that trying to sound the alarm is worthwhile. best, john
- [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-i… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for dra… tjw ietf
- Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for dra… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for dra… John R. Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for dra… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-ie… John R. Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-ie… P Vix
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-ie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-ie… John R. Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] redefining SRV, New Version Not… John R. Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] redefining SRV, New Version Not… John R. Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… John R. Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] redefining SRV, New Version Not… Ray Bellis
- [DNSOP] Attrleaf _second-Level modifications (was… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] Attrleaf _second-Level modifications Ray Bellis
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] New Version Notification for dr… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Attrleaf _second-Level modifica… John Levine
- [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf-… John C Klensin
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… John C Klensin
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… John C Klensin
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… John R. Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… John C Klensin
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… Martin Hoffmann
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… Martin Hoffmann
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… John C Klensin
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… John R. Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… John C Klensin
- [DNSOP] _openpgpkey & _smimecert (was: Re: [art] … Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… Paul Vixie
- [DNSOP] namespace and substring reservations (was… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… Ray Bellis
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… Dave Crocker
- [DNSOP] Additional uses of underscore labels (was… Martin Hoffmann
- Re: [DNSOP] Additional uses of underscore labels Dave Crocker
- [DNSOP] End-to-end _underscore arguments (was: Re… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… Warren Kumari
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… Warren Kumari
- Re: [DNSOP] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop-attrl… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… John C Klensin
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… Adam Roach
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… Dave Crocker
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… John R. Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [art] Another look - draft-ietf-dnsop… John R. Levine