Re: [Dtls-iot] dice wg future work... or time to declare victory?

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Mon, 26 October 2015 12:59 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: dtls-iot@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dtls-iot@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A6D1B2E53 for <dtls-iot@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 05:59:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.311
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tYgLTVY5MCVg for <dtls-iot@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 05:59:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4494B1B2E4B for <dtls-iot@ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 05:59:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251F3BE49; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:59:21 +0000 (GMT)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mynkuUYBALLU; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:59:19 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from [10.87.48.91] (unknown [86.46.30.221]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B66CDBE3F; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:59:18 +0000 (GMT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1445864359; bh=dKsBhmkxkGh+B69R9vZ89iFM7ZgKVmvy/hmjNvEfsUg=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=dD/lufZsePBvUULbsL45iNDpEseyGqw6zfXghME4IgeAQ0R9BARIIHq46n75so+93 Xem3YUJlqQ2L7mqyDMuM137y5RRX6Irb8eMWLINxHvxC3h2jpxvyOAFYeBBUqutOr1 qEOVen/aO+7qvaCpH+ME4WyAblAPgMaOpZvHO4FI=
To: "Kumar, Sandeep" <sandeep.kumar@philips.com>, Shahid Raza <periodic@live.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
References: <56265F53.7040108@cs.tcd.ie> <5626624A.6050307@gmx.net> <866AAD58-17FA-46B1-B179-C38A5348C69D@arm.com> <5626666F.7080106@gmx.net> <562E0919.80504@sics.se> <562E0EDB.2060108@tzi.org> <BLU437-SMTP8415915F824FD5FF4249DEAC230@phx.gbl> <e4d2565995a94848a445426360fd21bc@DB5PR9001MB0167.MGDPHG.emi.philips.com>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url=
Message-ID: <562E23A6.1000705@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:59:18 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <e4d2565995a94848a445426360fd21bc@DB5PR9001MB0167.MGDPHG.emi.philips.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dtls-iot/FFY6OAV7RwsWt8h-98It1vIBASY>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "dtls-iot@ietf.org" <dtls-iot@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dtls-iot] dice wg future work... or time to declare victory?
X-BeenThere: dtls-iot@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: DTLS for IoT discussion list <dtls-iot.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dtls-iot>, <mailto:dtls-iot-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dtls-iot/>
List-Post: <mailto:dtls-iot@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dtls-iot-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtls-iot>, <mailto:dtls-iot-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:59:26 -0000


On 26/10/15 12:55, Kumar, Sandeep wrote:
> I do have to say that Zach and Dorothy did spend quite some effort
> trying to get DICE on track even with their growing responsibilities
> outside IETF. Thanks to both!  However DICE was just taken hostage by
> a few distractors who even till today haven't provided any
> alternative practical solutions. It sure is a "victory" for the
> distractors, not for anyone here who wanted to solve a real world
> problem in a practical way.

I think the above is inappropriate. There were and are valid technical
criticisms of what was the planned work. Some who initially supported
that planned work were convinced by those criticisms. That does include
me fwiw, but I'm far from alone. Secure group communication as was
envisaged by our charter just doesn't turn out to work. That's a pity,
but a reality.

S.


> 
> When we started DICE, there were quite some good ideas on further
> improving IoT security with just DTLS (remember DTLS-relay). Either
> we need more energy and guidance (also from the chairs) or accept
> that these kind of stuff will be standardized outside IETF. The
> latter is a sad conclusion of closing DICE.
> 
> Sandeep
> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: dtls-iot
>> [mailto:dtls-iot-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shahid Raza Sent:
>> Monday, October 26, 2015 12:44 PM To: Carsten Bormann
>> <cabo@tzi.org>; Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>;;
>> dtls-iot@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dtls-iot] dice wg future work... or
>> time to declare victory?
>> 
>> I also think we are not done with the DICE charter. To complete the
>> work, I would prefer current chairs but will not mind new chair(s)
>> if the group is closing only because of the unavailability of the
>> current chairs.
>> 
>> Regards Shahid
>> 
>>> On 26 Oct 2015, at 12:30, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Let's close the group and cover group communication in the ACE 
>>>> working group instead.
>>> 
>>> I'm not sure that ACE is the right WG for this, we don't do
>>> comsec there (we need it, but import it from elsewhere).
>>> 
>>> (COSE might be the right WG, but that is rather focused on one 
>>> technology.)
>>> 
>>> One other DICE thing that is still open is DTLS-over-SMS.  No
>>> idea whether we have the energy to finish this, but I seem to
>>> remember it is mostly done.
>>> 
>>> Grüße, Carsten
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________ dtls-iot mailing
>>> list dtls-iot@ietf.org 
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtls-iot
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ dtls-iot mailing
>> list dtls-iot@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtls-iot
> 
> ________________________________ The information contained in this
> message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable
> law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are
> not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is
> strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all
> copies of the original message. 
> _______________________________________________ dtls-iot mailing
> list dtls-iot@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtls-iot
>