Re: [hrpc] Diverse participation (and the lack thereof) was: I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt

[Eliot Lear <[e-mail]>]

It is in as much as participation is a factor in decisions made in standards that affect societies.  However, my own interest in seeing the IETF not become irrelevant is not relevant here, I must admit.

Eliot

> On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:49, Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> Is hrpc the right venue for this discussion though? Might fit better in IAB or GEN AREA ? I don't want to get hrpc (and its chairs) into trouble (again).
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Niels
> 
> On 7/12/19 1:29 PM, Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> It's an interesting discussion.
>> To Niels point on a "IETF/IRTF participation draft":
>> - Should the evolution (and relative pervasiveness) of collaboration technologies/means/practices also be factored in?
>> - For the participation from academics, I could share some experience and limited analysis on why some researchers participate, or don't or stop to. IETF and IRTF have different implications.
>> 
>> --Laurent.
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: hrpc <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Eliot Lear
>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 13:09
>>> To: Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]>
>>> Cc: [e-mail]
>>> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt
>>> 
>>> Ok, it’s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one draft.  I must
>>> admit my own concern about our self-selective tendencies, not simply
>>> because the disadvantage new entrants, but because it will limit our
>>> relevance over time.
>>> 
>>> Eliot
>>> 
>>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:04, Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Signed PGP part
>>>> Hi Elliot,
>>>> 
>>>> On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>> Hi Niels
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not
>>> intended to bring in new people, this actually has become an official non-
>>> goal in the meeting venue selection process per draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-
>>> venue-selection-process and draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The
>>> current consensus seems to be that participating in the IETF is not
>>> dependent of physical participation, but can also be done through
>>> mailinglists and remote tools.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As the editor of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I
>>> don’t think you should shy away in your research from challenging that
>>> where, in your view, the IETF may have erred.
>>>> 
>>>> Don't worry, I will ;)
>>>> 
>>>> Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned
>>> argument, and the IRTF is expected to provide that.  Maybe not
>>> immediately, and maybe not without other precipitating factors that either
>>> don’t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but this is really the
>>> only way change happens.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own draft.
>>> Ideally it could show several trends:
>>>> 
>>>> - consolidation
>>>> 	-  total number of participants/draft authors/RFC
>>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated to a low number of
>>> organizations
>>>> - academic exodus
>>>> 	- decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC
>>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated with an academic
>>> institution
>>>> - geographical representation
>>>> - diversity
>>>> 
>>>> and seek to explain to the data and trends, and ideally also provide
>>> recommendations.
>>>> 
>>>> I do personally not think it would be helpful to add this to draft-irtf-
>>> hrpc-political, but it could indeed be a follow-up draft. I would be happy
>>> to support the writing of that with quantitative mailinglist analysis.
>>>> 
>>>> I could also imagine this being part of this draft though:
>>>> 
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-02
>>>> 
>>>> Where it might have more impact than in hrpc.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> 
>>>> Niels
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Eliot
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Niels ten Oever
>>>> Researcher and PhD Candidate
>>>> DATACTIVE Research Group
>>>> University of Amsterdam
>>>> 
>>>> PGP fingerprint	   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> Niels ten Oever
> Researcher and PhD Candidate
> DATACTIVE Research Group
> University of Amsterdam
> 
> PGP fingerprint	   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488
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