Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt

[Eliot Lear <[e-mail]>]

Hi Melinda,

Between your two messages to me, I’m not sure where to start, so I’ll start with this one, since it seems to contradict your earlier one.

> On 12 Jul 2019, at 19:38, Melinda Shore <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> Signed PGP part
> On 7/12/19 7:41 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> I think you need to support this statement based on my previous message.
>>  That is- if one has an inability to *effectively *participate in the
>> setting of defacto standards that impact one’s own society, isn’t one
>> disenfranchised from protecting against whatever human rights impacts
>> our work has?  Or is that in itself not a human right, and merely some
>> form of privilege?
> 
> I think we need to be clear that people do not have to attend IETF
> meetings to influence internet standards, at least in theory.  We
> (alas) do tend to stray from the expectation that the IETF does its
> work (including coming to consensus) on mailing lists, but that is,
> in fact, how we are expected to work.

If your claim is that human contact has no meaningful value, then we needn’t meet at all in person.  But we do, and with good reason.  And when we make that choice, and when we use language in our documents that specifically intends to advantage those who are already participating by meeting in places convenient to them, that is a form of self-selection.  The same has been argued elsewhere that when we develop RFC editing tools that address the needs of existing participants over those who might find it easier to use other tooling (I would agree with those who would say that it is not a substantial barrier; English is a far more substantial barrier).  Are there other forces pushing against that?  Sure, but let’s not ignore the effect.

> 
> That said, I also question whether or not this discussion is in-scope
> for HRPC.  The question you ask above might be, but the one specifically
> about IETF meeting venue choice is not.
> 

As to the first question, here’s a quote from UNCHR:

> Democracy is one of the universal core values and principles of the United Nations. Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and the principle of holding periodic and genuine elections by universal suffrage are essential elements of democracy. These values are embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and further developed in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights which enshrines a host of political rights and civil liberties underpinning meaningful democracies.

The basis of democracy is the right to participation in decisions made about how one will be governed.  We here do not operate on the basis of democracy, but we assuredly operate on the basis of participation.  And participation must be meaningful.  And if it follows that there is meaningful value in attending our meetings, then we have established that some are suffering a loss while others are benefiting.

The IETF consciously chosen a tradeoff against this sort of abridgment, in favor of what we hope are better technical results.  But this presumes that that there is a common understanding of what better technical results means.

Eliot