Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.0 is not good
"Adrien W. de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com> Sun, 20 January 2013 23:39 UTC
Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358EC21F874F for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:39:50 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.849
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.149, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u93LmwSERG6O for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:39:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD5321F8718 for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:39:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1Tx4Tv-0008EW-Gg for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:39:19 +0000
Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:39:19 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1Tx4Tv-0008EW-Gg@frink.w3.org>
Received: from maggie.w3.org ([128.30.52.39]) by frink.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <adrien@qbik.com>) id 1Tx4Tr-0008Dj-9y for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:39:15 +0000
Received: from smtp.qbik.com ([210.55.214.35]) by maggie.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <adrien@qbik.com>) id 1Tx4Tq-0000oo-4Z for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:39:15 +0000
Received: From [192.168.0.10] (unverified [192.168.0.10]) by SMTP Server [192.168.0.1] (WinGate SMTP Receiver v7.5.0 (Build 3481)) with SMTP id <0019475247@smtp.qbik.com>; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:40:25 +1300
From: "Adrien W. de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, "William Chan (陈智昌)" <willchan@chromium.org>
Cc: Pablo <paa.listas@gmail.com>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:38:22 +0000
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; format="flowed"; charset="utf-8"
In-Reply-To: <DC03C924-9DCC-45CE-B9DB-5906EADAF9C4@mnot.net>
Message-Id: <em670f0a0f-3c5a-4f99-88cb-03bd4234ce63@bombed>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: "Adrien W. de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com>
User-Agent: eM_Client/5.0.17263.0
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=210.55.214.35; envelope-from=adrien@qbik.com; helo=smtp.qbik.com
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: AWL=-2.399, BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: maggie.w3.org 1Tx4Tq-0000oo-4Z b433d03de71e5b01d5b983cc2e2c25e7
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.0 is not good
Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/em670f0a0f-3c5a-4f99-88cb-03bd4234ce63@bombed>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/16056
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <http://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>
the thing that will make debugging harder won't be binary vs text, but the inter-dependence of messages. Especially when it comes to looking through debug logs for issues. On-the-wire, you already need to piece together a TCP stream to see what's going on, so having http messages effectively split over multiple frames (e.g. delta encoding, or compression) only becomes a problem when you don't capture enough to decode. I think it might be worth-while specifying a requirement for a "debug" option for senders of binary messages which turns off all other optimisations, such as caching unchanged headers etc (so they are sent every time). Just an idea. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net> To: "William Chan (陈智昌)" <willchan@chromium.org> Cc: "Pablo" <paa.listas@gmail.com>; "HTTP Working Group" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> Sent: 21/01/2013 12:04:08 p.m. Subject: Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.0 is not good >In one of our recent meetings, one of the grey-bearded IETF old-timers >(I forget which, sorry) said that a textual-protocol was a >nice-to-have, but that it shouldn't be a determining factor in design. > >I.e., if you can get everything you need out of a protocol, *and* make >it textual, do so, but if it detracts from the value you get from it, >don't let that constrain you. > >FWIW, I think that's a good rule of thumb. However, this means that the >community is going to need *excellent* tooling for analysing, >debugging, etc. HTTP traffic; and I don't just mean a Wireshark plugin! > >Cheers, > > >On 21/01/2013, at 9:36 AM, William Chan (陈智昌) <willchan@chromium.org> >wrote: > >> There are many advantages to using binary data. If you would like a >> textual representation of a protocol, I advise using a utility to >> generate one for you. >> >> On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Pablo <paa.listas@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> I have readed this document >>> http://dev.chromium.org/spdy/spdy-protocol/spdy-protocol-draft1 >>>today [1]. >>> >>> I just wanted to say that I think that the use of any binary data >>>(framing, >>> header compression, etc.) in any place of the "header" part of HTTP >>>protocol >>> is not good; so, please only use plaintext for HTTP 2.0 because, >>>otherwise, >>> that will make very difficult to "see" the headers's protocol :) >>> >>> Thats all, >>> Thanks for reading this few lines, sorry for my basic English, and I >>>hope >>> that you can re-think all this of using binary data in any part of >>>HTTP X.X >>> (ej: session layer). >>> >>> >>> [1] I started knowing about HTTP 2.0 here: >>> http://webscannotes.com/2012/10/09/http-2-0-officially-in-the-works/ >>> >> > >-- >Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > > >
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… David Morris
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Amos Jeffries
- The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.0 is… Pablo
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Willy Tarreau
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Tim Bray
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… James M Snell
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Amos Jeffries
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Roberto Peon
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Nico Williams
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Eliot Lear
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Patrick McManus
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Patrick McManus
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Amos Jeffries
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Nico Williams
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Amos Jeffries
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Roberto Peon