Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.0 is not good
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Mon, 21 January 2013 00:03 UTC
Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E15321F8689 for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:03:17 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.078
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aqmZRh23WofB for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:03:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE09721F8629 for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:03:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1Tx4q4-0002uF-F1 for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 00:02:12 +0000
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 00:02:12 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1Tx4q4-0002uF-F1@frink.w3.org>
Received: from lisa.w3.org ([128.30.52.41]) by frink.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <nico@cryptonector.com>) id 1Tx4q0-0002ta-6n for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 00:02:08 +0000
Received: from caiajhbdcagg.dreamhost.com ([208.97.132.66] helo=homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com) by lisa.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <nico@cryptonector.com>) id 1Tx4pw-0001Cs-9z for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 00:02:08 +0000
Received: from homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA0D264058 for <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:01:42 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=3q3V7cwp3Ht3z1DueJSGOc5IJFU=; b=H/ws5pIqtnc yxA14YbrwsonZh5kLeCCKUioqzbq/QyTPr7SuoNI6oqtn2gHvZSoNE1ixig2KSVE U/eAPqng2fRzpH7WfPeoiM7I8cnZwc5Cbt2u7lktZU+ZUdz5nTmeUPC5QochOA2N wWGfHuw5TgE8VOwxXVpPd+BHD8uc9+fw=
Received: from mail-wg0-f45.google.com (mail-wg0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A95F264057 for <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:01:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id dq12so3459158wgb.12 for <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:01:41 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.194.77.13 with SMTP id o13mr23373350wjw.58.1358726501235; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:01:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.217.82.73 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:01:41 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CAA4WUYjyX2QkrfB5Sj8_vyyQuC6Ftx7XsvF+om66D6=EU5V5Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAZO4q4vEiYhH5FaX2XCxXox9jkf4dLTy8coQZiE+CYHA-QzBg@mail.gmail.com> <CAA4WUYhkVBRAyY1O32aOiWB8=46SBidFOjKH+e7PGbB7mKzmiQ@mail.gmail.com> <DC03C924-9DCC-45CE-B9DB-5906EADAF9C4@mnot.net> <CAHBU6iuaeAeTrz6TSOyhNvW2pXWgQB_RQ+6MYAb9DyJUZ00Rcg@mail.gmail.com> <CABP7Rbdft=ukmL+vgyJtSTRSVytxMFkX6ctqhqhJ2Njw_OLr1g@mail.gmail.com> <CAA4WUYjyX2QkrfB5Sj8_vyyQuC6Ftx7XsvF+om66D6=EU5V5Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:01:41 -0600
Message-ID: <CAK3OfOiXsjKeuwmX+1JuNL7u8fceQxY0nczjy=6HiBWpgVqYxA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: "William Chan (陈智昌)" <willchan@chromium.org>
Cc: HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Received-SPF: none client-ip=208.97.132.66; envelope-from=nico@cryptonector.com; helo=homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.5
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: AWL=-2.500, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: lisa.w3.org 1Tx4pw-0001Cs-9z 9d5ce3ae278277c8eb9e101013972122
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.0 is not good
Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/CAK3OfOiXsjKeuwmX+1JuNL7u8fceQxY0nczjy=6HiBWpgVqYxA@mail.gmail.com>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/16063
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <http://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 5:48 PM, William Chan (陈智昌) <willchan@chromium.org> wrote: > [...] Yes, maybe some humans will internalize a binary encoding of > headers and be able to grok hexdumps, but to the vast majority of > people, it's basically the same. Nah, we have plenty of packet capture parsers (Netmon, Wireshark, tcpdump, snoop, ...). Wireshark, in particular, is very easy to write new plugins for, and it's portable. I'm with Roberto too: it's not really true that textual protocols are easier to debug, at least not now that we have extensible packet capture inspection tools. Further, textual protocols may inhibit the creation of dissectors for them ("it's text already, what you do need a dissector for?"), which makes them harder to inspect than binary protocols. We can probably apply a lot of minimal encodings of header values (and header names) in a textual way, but the result would be nearly as incomprehensible (without tools) to a human as a hex dump of a binary protocol. So merely trying to do as best as we can while retaining a textual nature seems likely to lead to either few gains or a protocol that's as [in]scrutable as a binary version. Finally, as others have pointed out, human-readable textual protocols are likely to allow lots of variations that complicate parsers, thus being a cause of bugs. Nico --
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… David Morris
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Amos Jeffries
- The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.0 is… Pablo
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Willy Tarreau
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Tim Bray
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… James M Snell
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Amos Jeffries
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Roberto Peon
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Nico Williams
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Eliot Lear
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Patrick McManus
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Patrick McManus
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Amos Jeffries
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Nico Williams
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Amos Jeffries
- Re: The use of binary data in any part of HTTP 2.… Roberto Peon