Re: [I18ndir] text of conclusion
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 13 March 2019 19:41 UTC
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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 15:41:07 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
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Subject: Re: [I18ndir] text of conclusion
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Peter (and, ultimately, Alexey), Perhaps others are in better shape, but I'm rather burned out at this point and am sure my ability to think and write clearly would benefit from a couple of days away from these document drafts. Without going back and looking, I'm guessing the question about the cross-reference to 6.2 or 6.3 is a result of our asking (even implicitly) Patrik to turn out drafts a bit too fast, especially when he is in the middle of an ICANN meeting. Many of Adam's nits in the tracker (see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-faltstrom-unicode11/ballot/ ), especially references that are still in the document after the citing text was removed, are symptoms of the same sorts of problem. Yesterday, Alissa indicated in the tracker that she added a management item on tomorrow's IESG agenda to tell IANA to post the tables. Her note seems to suggest posting the Unicode 11 table, with which I'm comfortable; were that to morph into the Unicode 12 table, I think that would allow others insufficient time for others to review it and it once again punts the issue of review of the new code points. Alissa's note points to the 2018 IANA statement but, despite noting that the IANA tables are not normative, that statement's claim of "well-known failure modes which were demonstrated in the deployment of IDNA 2003" appears to contradict that comment and, given the IDNA2008 requirement for matching versions of Unicode and derived properties in any given implementation or application, substitutes one problem for another unless/until IANA alters the registry to make tables available for every Unicode version (or at least major version) from 5.2 to the present (presumably 12.0) available. Such a management action also interacts with whether the RFC that descends from draft-faltstrom-unicodeXX should, or should not, include the appendices or at least the final appendix. AFAICT, while, according to the tracker, Alexey hasn't taken the vote on the agenda itself off tomorrow's agenda, he has recorded a DISCUSS because of the new draft and the need for another IETF LC (a statement I believe would be true even for unicode11-08 even if there were no unicode12-00/unicode11-09 draft around. IIR IESG rules, a DISCUSS from the sponsoring AD, especially of an individual submission. stops forward progress until it is resolved. Your note (and possibly others to come) indicate, unsurprisingly, that the latter may need one more iteration. Recommendation: (1) The IESG should approve Alissa's management item and get the Unicode 11.0 derived tables to, and posted by, IANA. In part because Unicode 11 and those tables have been around for a while, I'm willing to live with largely skipping the new code point review (also, ARAICT, skipped for 8.0, 9.0, and 10.0). That should take the immediate pressure off IANA'x only posted table version being over seven years old. Note that because of insufficient time to review and the new code point review issue, an instruction to IANA to post the 12.0 tables at this point would almost certainly result in an appeal, which would presumably hold the IANA tables at 6.x until it was resolved and would hence be counterproductive relative to getting the IANA tables closer to current versions of Unicode. (2) The IESG should do whatever it decides to do with the vote tomorrow, as long as it is not to forward any of the three relevant incarnations of the draft (unicode11-07, unicode11-08, unicode12-0/unicode11-09 to the RFC Editor for publication. (3) Almost contrary to my suggestion in my note to Alexey about versioning, if we are agreed that the unicode12 draft, whatever it is called, is going to need another iteration, another possibility is that Patrik posts that version as unicode11-09, superceding unicode12-00, and we just move on. That should keep things completely straight and cause zero pain or confusion. Or not, as long as everyone (including the tracker) is clear about which draft is the current and active one going forward. (4) We (the directorate) take at least the next 24 hours and preferably the rest of the week off. (5) Presumably somewhat refreshed and with clarity as to which draft (and which draft name) we are working on, we proceed to look at the paragraph you have identified and your suggestion, other outstanding issues (include Adam's and Benjamin Kaduk's lists from the tracker), and whatever else turns up after a more relaxed review, to produce another document iteration that we can actually recommend. (6) In parallel, we see if we can reach sufficient consensus on the substance of what should be in the "future review plan" document, including whether we want to improve the procedure for new code point review or modify 5892 to eliminate that apparent requirement, to make a recommendation about that and maybe get started on such a draft. We guess is that we are about 75% agreed, so should get the details fleshed out and written down (and ideally stronger consensus) before we forget. (7) We also put together a recommendation to the IESG about working with IANA to get tables for all relevant Unicode versions up. IF that requires an update to the IANA Considerations sections of IDNA2008, we figure out how to get that written. We do all of (5)-(7) in the mode of a directorate trying to get one or more documents sorted out, not with the constraints of a team review on a particular version of a document. (8) I've got an incomplete idea about working with Asmus and the "troublesome" list to efficiently put together a "new code point" review for either 12.0 or 8.0 forward. I'd be astonished if we found anything, but it would be, IMO, worth doing the review and posting a summary. Details sometime (and to be discussed with him before I make a more concrete proposal), but not now. (9) Because directorates generally don't submit I-Ds (given comments made when this one was being put together, I imagine any attempt to do that would cause a waste of time), both the next version of draft-faltstrom-unicode11 and the "review plan" document will need to be individual submissions (unless Alexey wants to convene a WG) but I think, especially given the nice words from several ADs in the tracker about the amount of work that has been done in the last five weeks or so, those drafts should explicitly recognize that they were the result of directorate efforts. That would also provide some protection for Patrik if we have somehow botched things and send a message to those watching that this is a consensus team effort. I've got some specific ideas about how to do that, but not today. Does that make sense to others? john --On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 11:25 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote: > Looking again at Section 6 ("Conclusion") of > draft-faltstrom-unicode12, I have a question: > > As described in Section 4 and Section 5, changes have been > made to Unicode between version 6.2.0 and 12.0.0. Some > changes to specific characters changed their derived > property value, while other changes did not. Given what is > described in Section 3.3 and the changes described, > including implications to normalization, the conclusion of > this document is to not add any exception rules to IDNA2008. > > This does not preclude any such updates to RFC 5892 > [RFC5892] or any other IDNA2008 related document in the > future when new versions of the Unicode Standard is > released, and it might also happen that it is found the > algorithm specified in IDNA2008 is not suitable for DNS > without additional rules, categories, or tuning. > > Depending on what we mean by "such updates", this could be > read as implying that updates to RFC 5892 would happen only or > primarily because of changes introduced in new versions of the > Unicode Standard. However, although the issues described in > draft-klensin-idna-5892upd-unicode70 might have been noticed > because U+08A1 was introduced in Unicode 7.0.0, as we know > they were lurking in the shadows all along. > > (Also, should "6.2.0" be "6.3.0" in the first paragraph?) > > Here is a suggested modification: > > As described in Section 4 and Section 5, changes have been > made to Unicode between version 6.3.0 and version 12.0.0. > Some changes to specific characters resulted in changes to > their derived property value for IDNA, whereas other > changes did not. Given the deployment considerations > described in Section 3.3 and the Unicode changes described > in Section 4 and Section 5, including implications for > normalization, the conclusion of this document is to not add > any exception rules to IDNA2008. > > This document addresses only changes to Unicode between > version 6.3.0 and version 12.0.0. Changes in future > Unicode versions might result in the conclusion that > exception rules need to be added to IDNA2008. Separately > from any changes in Unicode, the IETF might conclude that > updates to RFC 5892 [RFC5892] or other IDNA2008 documents might > become necessary; such updates might include changes to the > algorithm specified in IDNA2008 as well as additional > rules, categories, or other forms of tuning. > > Thoughts? > > Peter
- [I18ndir] text of conclusion Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [I18ndir] text of conclusion John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] text of conclusion Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] text of conclusion Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] text of conclusion Martin J. Dürst