Re: [icnrg] next stepd for draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirements

[Ravi Ravindran <[e-mail]>]

Hi Dirk,

The draft's objective is not to propose a particular ICN-IoT solution or dive into one, but to layout the challenges in this emerging area of research. Also the draft has been in works since IETF 90 or so, when there was hardly any work in this space.

Now considering the work in this space, we can definitely add a new section on ICN-IoT solutions and some lessons learnt and challenges that needs to be addressed. Also there were some items that were identified during the joint meeting with the T2TRG group such as applicability of ICN-IoT in the IP-IoT world and inter-operating with it.

I'll summarize these inputs and things that came up in the mailing list in the meeting tomorrow, hope we can come to some consensus on how to proceed with the draft.


Regards,
Ravi

-----Original Message-----
From: icnrg [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Dirk Kutscher
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:20 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [icnrg] next stepd for draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirements

Hi Alfredo and all,

thanks -- I think that many of us have some intuition that ICN be useful in IoT scenarios.

It would be great to hear more about the technical solutions that people have developed for IoT/ICN, what problems they ran into etc.,

I think we should dive deeper into these technical discussions.

Best regards,

Dirk


On 11.11.2016 09:04, Alfredo Grieco wrote:
> Dear mjm, Chairs, and all
>
> the point here is that today we can get hundreds of different IoT technologies which hardly interoperate and make them work together thanks to a de-verticalizing middlewares based on ICN principles.
>
> This is not my opinion -only- but what current literature on the subject says. Furthermore, we set up within the H2020 Bonvoyage project an experimental demonstrator that shows that the design principles stated in the draft can become reality. As a matter of fact, in that project we set up a de-verticalizing middleware based on ICN primitives that support IoT applications in Intelligent Transportation Systems. Very recently, we adopted the same middleware in an international Galileo project with LAAS - CNRS (FR) to demonstrate that the same ICN-IoT middleware (the one of the H2020 Bonvoyage project) can serve to smart building applications.
>
> If a Reseach Group should consider the status of the art (and not only personal opinions) I believe this draft did it. We are aware that there is much space for improvements but ICN-IoT by itself is a branch of ICN research that exists in literature and projects so that it would be the case to cover it somehow within the icnrg: am I missing something ?
>
> Many thanks all for the feedbacks.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alfredo
>
> —
> Luigi Alfredo Grieco, PhD
> Associate Professor
> Editor-in-Chief, ETT
> IEEE VTS - Distinguished Lecturer
> Dep. of Electrical and Information Engineering (DEI) Politecnico di 
> Bari Via Orabona, 4
> 70125 - Bari - Italy
> Phone: [phone]
> url: telematics.poliba.it
> mail: [e-mail]
> linkedin: it.linkedin.com/in/alfredogrieco
>> Il giorno 11 nov 2016, alle ore 02:47, Marie-Jose Montpetit <[e-mail]> ha scritto:
>>
>> I think a lot of us are still looking for the draft to show how ICN is improving on non-ICN IoT. I have Nest, Hue and Alexa and Siri and got a few of of the Amazon Dash for fun - and getting the Google Home soon. How can ICN improve on this? I agree they all have their own app. But what else?
>>
>> mjm
>>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 8:43 PM, Ravi Ravindran <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Chairs,
>>>
>>> Thanks for update on the draft. Sure we would like to work with others to improve it. If folks want to collaborate on this, I'll be available at the interim and main session for more discussion.
>>>
>>> Another comment on the support for this draft, to be fair to all those who took time to provide us their feedback; even with the slow pace of activity in this mailing list, we received ~10 responses, mostly either support for adoption or technical comments to the draft. To validate, in addition to the recent comments, the attachment has the previous comments that were provided on the mailing list and that were addressed in the last revision. So I'm not sure if this number isn't a show of enthusiasm for adoption ?.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ravi
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: icnrg [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Dirk 
>>> Kutscher
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 9:06 AM
>>> To: [e-mail]
>>> Cc: Börje Ohlman <[e-mail]>; David R Oran 
>>> <[e-mail]>
>>> Subject: Re: [icnrg] next stepd for 
>>> draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirements
>>>
>>> Hi Ravi and all,
>>>
>>> thanks for the reminder and apologies for the longer processing time.
>>>
>>> The chairs have reviewed draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirements and considered the nature and breadth of the commentary from the RG participants. While our joint assessment is that the draft has some value and could be published after a reasonable amount of additional technical improvement, we are concerned that the level of engagement of the RG beyond the authors has not been sufficient to have a consensus to adopt the the draft and continue to work on it as an RG-sponsored document. The chairs have made multiple consensus calls and not found much enthusiasm. We therefore propose that ICNRG not adopt this document but do not object to it proceeding as an individual RFC candidate.
>>> However, if by the end of the two ICNRG sessions at IETF 97 at least 2 non-author RG participants indicate willingness to invest time to work with the authors to solicit further comments and make editorial improvements we will reconsider this decision.
>>>
>>> Let us know in case of any question or comment.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Dave, Börje, Dirk (ICNRG chairs)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04.11.2016 19:07, Ravi Ravindran wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> It will be nice to know the decision on this draft. We can address the comments raised by Marie-Jose, Lixia and Thomas as an RG contribution.
>>>>
>>>> Many comments raised in the last call for comments have already been addressed in the current revision.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requiremen
>>>> ts-
>>>> 01.txt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ravi
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: icnrg [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Moustafa, 
>>>> Hassnaa
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 5:30 PM
>>>> To: '[e-mail]'; Cedric Westphal
>>>> Cc: Lixia Zhang; Marie-Jose Montpetit; [e-mail]; Dirk 
>>>> Kutscher
>>>> Subject: Re: [icnrg] next stepd for 
>>>> draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirements
>>>>
>>>> I support the adoption of this draft as a WG document. This draft is a very good basis and be a very useful guideline for ICN deployment for IOT. And the comments below are so useful to consider. It would be also of value to show examples for delay sensitive applications in IOT and how ICN can be a better solution.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Hassnaa
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: icnrg [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Gennaro 
>>>> Boggia
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 1:34 AM
>>>> To: Cedric Westphal <[e-mail]>
>>>> Cc: Dirk Kutscher <[e-mail]>; Marie-Jose Montpetit 
>>>> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; Lixia Zhang 
>>>> <[e-mail]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [icnrg] next stepd for 
>>>> draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirements
>>>>
>>>> I agree with the previous comments and I support the adoption of it 
>>>> as a WG document
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards
>>>> Gennaro
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gennaro Boggia, PhD
>>>> Associate Professor
>>>> DEI - Politecnico di Bari
>>>> v. Orabona 4
>>>> 70125 Bari (Italy)
>>>> Tel. [phone]
>>>> Fax [phone]
>>>> Skype: g.boggia
>>>> e-mail: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
>>>> web: http://telematics.poliba.it/boggia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-09-19 22:29 GMT+02:00 Cedric Westphal <[e-mail]>:
>>>>> I agree with Lixia and Marie-Jose that this draft would benefit 
>>>>> from being worked on by the  RG. I support adoption as a WG document.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: icnrg [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> Marie-Jose Montpetit
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 9:06 AM
>>>>> To: Lixia Zhang
>>>>> Cc: [e-mail]; Dirk Kutscher
>>>>> Subject: Re: [icnrg] next stepd for 
>>>>> draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirements
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with Lixia. This needs more focus. Security is yes weak 
>>>>> and should not be an afterthought. But I think the justification 
>>>>> of ICN for IOT needs more in-depth descriptions and use cases. I 
>>>>> can see many reasons to use ICN in IOT (flexibility in caching, 
>>>>> storage and retrieval, naming abstraction, abstracted 
>>>>> functionalities) but almost as many reasons not too (added 
>>>>> complexity, lack of backward compatibility, firmware development 
>>>>> in sensor
>>>>> networks) etc. A few solid examples and I would say solid 
>>>>> implementations comparing the advantages of ICN vs. current implementations would be great.
>>>>> Our houses are already filled with IOT apps; how will ICN make them better?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not saying the draft is bad. Just that it needs more work 
>>>>> before truly reflecting the gains that ICN will bring to IOT.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marie-José
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 17, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Lixia Zhang <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Dirk Kutscher <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This may have fallen between the cracks during the summer break – 
>>>>> so this is a friendly reminder:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please let us have your opinion on how to pursue with this draft. 
>>>>> Do you support adopting it as an RG document?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I just had a quick look over the draft: it seems to me that this 
>>>>> draft still left lots rooms for improvements, not the least is its 
>>>>> treatment on security.  The current draft seems reflecting the 
>>>>> common mindset that security is something one has to mention, not 
>>>>> that security is an integral component in all aspects of a system.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 2: would it be more appropriate to move security from 
>>>>> section
>>>>> 2.8 to section 2.2, right after naming?  given security needs 
>>>>> crypto protection, crypto is directly related to identities
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 4 on Advantages of using ICN for IoT has no mentioning 
>>>>> about security.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 5, like section 2, puts security discussions much later 
>>>>> after other subjects that may be felt more familiar with, like 
>>>>> name resolution, caching and storage, routing/forwarding, 
>>>>> etc.--aren't al these components need security as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> There seem also discussions on trust that seems separate from security ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Another comment is a wish: the draft looks really 
>>>>> abstract/motherhood-and-applepie to me, I wonder whether it would 
>>>>> be possible to ground the description with some specific examples.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> my 2 cents from a *super* quick flip through (so please take with 
>>>>> a big grain of salt!)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lixia
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Dirk Kutscher
>>>>> Sent: Montag, 8. August 2016 17:33
>>>>> To: [e-mail]
>>>>> Subject: next stepd for draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirements
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> at the Berlin meeting, we concluded that we’d use the mailing list 
>>>>> to agree on next steps for draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirements [1].
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In case you don’t remember, this draft is the result of a merger 
>>>>> of
>>>>> draft-zhang-iot-icn-challenges-02 [2] and
>>>>> draft-lindgren-icnrg-efficientiot-03 [3], focusing on the 
>>>>> scenario, requirements and challenges aspects of both input drafts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After the merger, the authors have submitted another version, 
>>>>> reflecting some community feedback.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-icnrg-3.pdf
>>>>> for a summary of the genesis and the current content.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The chairs would like to get an understanding whether the ICNRG 
>>>>> has an interest in pursuing this draft as a RG activity 
>>>>> (“adoption”). We normally do this for drafts where there is a 
>>>>> critical mass of interested people that would like to see this 
>>>>> progressing within ICNRG and eventually be published as an (in this case, Informational)  RFC.
>>>>> This would also require a critical mass of people that would be 
>>>>> interested to spend cycles for reviewing the draft and future revisions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you please let us know whether you think this draft a) 
>>>>> should be adopted as a RG item and b) whether you’d be able to help reviewing it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Börje, Dave, Dirk (ICNRG chairs)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-icnrg-icniot-requirem
>>>>> ent
>>>>> s
>>>>> /
>>>>>
>>>>> [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-iot-icn-challenges-02
>>>>>
>>>>> [3]
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lindgren-icnrg-efficientiot
>>>>> /03
>>>>> /
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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