Re: multi-level naming
John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> Thu, 23 March 2017 13:43 UTC
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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 09:43:02 -0400
From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>
To: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: multi-level naming
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Cc: idna-update@alvestrand.no, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se>
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--On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 18:32 +0900 "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote: > Hello John, > > On 2017/03/17 09:51, John C Klensin wrote: > >> It has been long enough that I had forgotten that we actually >> had a WG (at least the tracker says we did) and have no memory >> of what is in a draft I apparently wrote, but... >> >> Circumstances have obviously changed since the WG was shut >> down (end of 2003 according to the tracker) > > The fact that the charter in the tracker still starts with > "This BOF will" seems to be a strong indication that this was > never actually a WG. Other indications in the tracker don't > contradict that. > > I remember even less of this than John, so I could be wrong. I just don't remember. I do remember at least a few f2f meetings, but don't remember if they were WG activities, one of more BOFs, or some other arrangements. The mailing list was not hosted by the IETF (but on lists.elistx.com), so there is no official archive. I've got my own archive, but I have no idea whether it is complete or just the messages I decided to keep. A quick scan of that archive indicates that there was a BOF at IETF 52 (December 9-14, 2001; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA), minutes are at https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/52/, section 2.1.15. It also turned up a Research Group called SIREN, chaired by Scott Hollenbeck. but, while the email shows at least one informal meeting at IETF 56 (March 16-21, 2003; San Francisco, California, USA), I can't remember whether it ever got off the ground. It is also reasonable to assume (although, again, I haven't found any documentation to verify it) that the conclusion from the IETF WG-forming effort was that this was a research project and the result was a shift into that SIREN RG effort. There is a charter at https://irtf.org/concluded/siren, but the archive link shown in that charter gets a "not found" error. The most recent version of draft-klensin-dns-search was posted in Februrary 2004, which would have been almost a year after IETF 56 and the last message I appear to have on file from either the irnss or siren lists. Other that noting that the suggestion to look at intermediate-level naming systems isn't new and had been explored for at least three years in the distant past (draft-klensin-dns-search-00 is dated May 2001 and I've got some off-list correspondence before that), I'm not sure how much value further archeology would have. I think it is reasonable to assume that draft-klensin-dns-search-06 is a reasonable characterization of the thinking sometime between March 2003 and February 2004 and might be worth a look. However, that was the tail end of a period in which there were a lot of ideas in the wind. There was still active work (including implementation, deployment, and marketing) on "keywords", IDNA2003 was just being finished and it wasn't clear yet whether it would work (I can't remember when the original IDN WG got started (and the tracker doesn't help), but I'm guessing around 2000 or 2002, which would make the start dates of the two efforts roughly contemporaneous). Even in that WG, IDNA was only one of several ideas, with some of them being quite radically different (for example, I remember a proposal for phonetic-based rather than character-code-based IDNs). Given that review, my guess is that, once the IDNA2003 documents were approved and published, we all decided to stop putting energy into other efforts and wait to see how well it worked out. The more important question now is whether anyone is interested in pursuing the ideas, and whether there is critical mass and adequate support for doing so, or whether, e.g., the IDNA situation (and/or the DNS situation generally) needs to get even more visibly bad before we can get any momentum together. If the answer is "yes, there is serious interest in moving forward", the next question is whether ideas are mature enough and there is enough agreement about them to start pursuing a mailing list and IETF WG (I don't believe using the idna-update list longer term for this discussion is appropriate), whether to pursue an RG, or whether to try to talk the IAB (or some other body) into a workshop to explore our various ideas. In case it helps people think about whether the activity would have critical mass, if there is significant interest I'm willing to go through that old I-D, correct materials that are clearly OBE, annotate it as basis for discussion, and post the result. But, while I am very interested in the idea (or family of ideas) --to the point that I'm convinced that the DNS is just not going to be able to do the job people expect and that something like it is probably the only viable way forward-- I'm running out of energy and getting too frustrated about IDN-related issues and am not going to be the one pulling this particular train. best, john
- Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… John C Klensin
- RE: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… John C Klensin
- FWD: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00… John C Klensin
- Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Paul Hoffman
- RE: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Shawn Steele
- Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Paul Hoffman
- RE: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Shawn Steele
- Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… John C Klensin
- RE: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… John C Klensin
- RE: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Shawn Steele
- Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Asmus Freytag
- Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Asmus Freytag
- Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Asmus Freytag
- emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… John C Klensin
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Shawn Steele
- Re: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Andrew Sullivan
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Shawn Steele
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Shawn Steele
- Re: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Patrik Fältström
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Shawn Steele
- Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis-00.… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… John Levine
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Shawn Steele
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… John C Klensin
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Shawn Steele
- multi-level naming (was: RE: emoji (was Re: I-D A… John C Klensin
- Re: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Patrik Fältström
- Re: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Asmus Freytag
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Shawn Steele
- Re: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… John C Klensin
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… John C Klensin
- Re: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… John Levine
- RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Shawn Steele
- Re: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-klensin-idna… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… Kim Davies
- Re: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… John C Klensin
- RE: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… Shawn Steele
- RE: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… John C Klensin
- RE: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… Shawn Steele
- Re: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… Joseph Yee
- Re: multi-level naming Martin J. Dürst
- RE: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… Mark Svancarek
- Re: multi-level naming John C Klensin
- RE: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… John C Klensin
- Re: [Ext] RE: emoji (was Re: I-D Action: draft-kl… Mark Davis ☕️
- Re: multi-level naming JFC Morfin