Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Headers Unhealthy To User Privacy" WG (fwd)
"Kurt Andersen (b)" <kboth@drkurt.com> Tue, 01 December 2015 18:25 UTC
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From: "Kurt Andersen (b)" <kboth@drkurt.com>
To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>
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Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, SMTP Discuss <ietf-smtp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Headers Unhealthy To User Privacy" WG (fwd)
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On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > Second, good luck on getting anyone to comment on the details of their own > secret sauce, or for that matter getting anyone who has learned such details > through business relationships. All such information is pretty much > guaranteed to be covered by confidentiality or nondisclosure agreements. Last year, when we had a discussion session at M3AAWG to discuss how to effectively move from IP-based reputation toward a domain-based reputation model, it was clear that there were two camps of thought: 1) Throw everything (all headers, all content) into a ML framework and let the algorithms figure out what to pay attention to in order to determine spam/not spam as well as a reputation accrual mechanism for any authenticated domain entities associated with the message; 2) Cherry-pick particular attributes and features of a message, with particular attention to some headers and come to some heuristic determination of spam/not spam + reputation accrual. People with big ML frameworks and expertise use every available piece of information. If they are mailbox providers, they use it on behalf of their customers. If they are state actors, they use it for their own purposes. It is unclear which would be more affected by redacting trace headers, but in the interest of moving domain authentication forward to handle indirect email flows, we are proposing an authenticated version of the Received chain in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andersen-arc-00 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-arc-usage-00. We think that this will be a benefit rather than a detriment to the community. --Kurt
- [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SM… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Carl S. Gutekunst
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Newman
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Steve Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Jim Fenton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Jim Fenton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Christian Huitema
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rolf E. Sonneveld
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Derek J. Balling
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… ComKal Networks
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Al Iverson
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Steve Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] chained authorizationm, was Propo… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] chained authorizationm, … Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Randall Gellens
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Matthias Leisi
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Tony Finch
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Steve Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Kurt Andersen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Christian Huitema
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Al Iverson
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Al Iverson
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] real life privacy tradeo… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] real life privacy tradeo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] real life privacy tradeo… Derek J. Balling
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] real life privacy tradeo… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] real life privacy tradeo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Derek J. Balling
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Derek J. Balling
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Derek J. Balling
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Christian Huitema
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] real life privacy tradeo… Christian Huitema
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Peter Bowyer
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Steve Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] new opportunities to dis… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Hector Santos
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… Steve Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] addresses as not easily … John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] chatting with big gorill… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] chatting with big gorill… Paul Smith
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] chatting with big gorill… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] chatting with big gorill… Brandon Long
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] chatting with big gorill… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] persistent identifiers, was Propo… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] addresses as not easily … Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [ietf-smtp] [Shutup] addresses as not easily … Ted Lemon