Re: All these discussions about meeting venues
Dave CROCKER <dhc@dcrocker.net> Mon, 13 September 2010 23:40 UTC
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:40:44 -0700
From: Dave CROCKER <dhc@dcrocker.net>
Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking
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To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: All these discussions about meeting venues
References: <B2514D9A-A313-4948-83E4-C0B5A6B55550@NLnetLabs.nl> <C89EF785.23331E%jordi.palet@consulintel.es> <3D3C75174CB95F42AD6BCC56E5555B4502F73EE6@FIESEXC015.nsn-intra.net> <AANLkTimDisdcxswidAQ01Oma2mHxr90rZYothQT3aVVw@mail.gmail.com> <4C7AAB41.5020609@bogus.com> <AANLkTimjEsVuFDL6GEXZhjOo8mFUuP0AOtwFWhbwLcVX@mail.gmail.com> <EF9149F2E57E8669208883A0@PST.JCK.COM> <4C7B16BC.4050802@bogus.com> <8BE173B0-0C0A-42C4-A346-D17A4222D219@cisco.com> <C878EAFE-B4CF-42DF-B3F9-F119C272D2A6@apnic.net> <20D23749-5E9B-44EF-960D-07BA6F761EB9@cisco.com>
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Cc: IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, George Michaelson <ggm@apnic.net>
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On 9/13/2010 2:52 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > What I find irritating with these discussions What I find irritating with these discussions is the tendency to get irritated. The other thing that is irritating is the tendency to dismiss or attack serious efforts to make serious comments. The nature of the IETF is that our openness guarantees a very poor signal to noise ratio. Folks who make silly postings are making silly postings. Silly to attack the IAOC. Silly to attack or dismiss people making serious criticisms. Silly to be simplistic, chauvinistic, ignorant, or the like. Silly to make sweeping assessments. We each have a burden to filter out the noise. Silly postings need to be ignored, rather than used as a basis for dismissing or distracting discussion from legitimate concerns. Maastricht suffered an impressive variety of problems. Worse, some of those problems have become a recurring pattern. As examples, we have had a significant number of venues in recent years that were distant from major transportation hubs and/or were distant from "local" resources such as the usual array of hotels, restaurants, markets and the like. > who are (apart from AMS and the IAD) volunteers like the rest of us and put a > fair bit of time and travel into getting things as close to "right" as they Anyone attacking the intention or effort of the IAOC is being silly. Anyone making a serious criticism of specific problems is /not/ being silly. They might be right or they might be wrong, but they focusing on outcomes that can legitimately be viewed as problematic. > can get them. We don't, to my knowledge, have anyone of restrictive religious > persuasions such as muslims or orthodox jews in the team that does the site > visits; there are a number of women involved, however, so I would expect the > team to be aware of women's issues. But, Fred, the problem really is with having such a varied population of attendees and then experimenting with new venues every time. This guarantees problems, because the varied population means that there is a complex set of requirements. No, all of the issues cannot be anticipated, nevermind resolved. However a resource-rich venue that is visited repeatedly means that the choices are much greater and that a learning curve can develop. > If we want to have these discussions on the IETF list, I would strongly > suggest that they be moderated for tone. +1. Does that include expressions of irritation...? > People need to find a way to discuss > an issue without making statements about a person or set of persons. +1 d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
- Re: FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht … Henk Uijterwaal
- FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Henk Uijterwaal
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Olaf Kolkman
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Jiankang YAO
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- All these discussions about meeting venues Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Fred Baker
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Carsten Bormann
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Scott Brim
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Mary Barnes
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Mary Barnes
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Mary Barnes
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dan Harkins
- RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Glen Zorn
- RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Glen Zorn
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Yoav Nir
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Yoav Nir
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Ole Jacobsen
- RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Glen Zorn
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Yoav Nir
- RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Glen Zorn
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Yoav Nir
- RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Glen Zorn
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Henk Uijterwaal
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Fernando Gont
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Randall Gellens
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Mary Barnes
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Joel Jaeggli
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Mary Barnes
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Joel Jaeggli
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Mary Barnes
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues John C Klensin
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues John C Klensin
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Marshall Eubanks
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dan Harkins
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Joel Jaeggli
- RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Glen Zorn
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues James M. Polk
- RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Randall Gellens
- RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Glen Zorn
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Andrew Sullivan
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Mary Barnes
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Melinda Shore
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dave CROCKER
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to B… Randall Gellens
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Joel Jaeggli
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Michael Dillon
- RE: All these discussions about meeting venues Glen Zorn
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Fred Baker
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Mary Barnes
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Mary Barnes
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Bob Hinden
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues George Michaelson
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Melinda Shore
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Fred Baker
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues David Morris
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Mary Barnes
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Martin Rex
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dave CROCKER
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Janet P Gunn
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Michael Dillon
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Michael Dillon
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen
- RE: All these discussions about meeting venues Glen Zorn
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Henk Uijterwaal
- RE: All these discussions about meeting venues Fleischman, Eric
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dave CROCKER
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dave CROCKER
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dave CROCKER
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dave CROCKER
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Andrew Sullivan
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Michael Dillon
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Michael Dillon
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Benjamin Niven-Jenkins
- RE: All these discussions about meeting venues Christer Holmberg
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Huub van Helvoort
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Richard L. Barnes
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dave CROCKER
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Dave CROCKER
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Patrik Faltstrom (pfaltstr)
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Martin Rex
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- RE: All these discussions about meeting venues Christer Holmberg
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- Re: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- RE: All these discussions about meeting venues Randall Gellens
- RE: All these discussions about meeting venues Ole Jacobsen