Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Wed, 30 March 2022 20:14 UTC
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Subject: Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation
To: Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
References: <CAD62q9U=CpSi-4BooQfdM7dc0FMCiqSAyCu-fVe2ckrQP7fmtw@mail.gmail.com> <CAKKJt-dOLf=+9=UmRC5bPUEk-Bj01uBWB8cy4EK02mjwA5yM1g@mail.gmail.c om> <742921.1647943041@dooku> <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> <825440.1647955471@dooku> <f78f2a1c-ffc6-5828-0d62-4d717382c017@alvestrand.no> <C447791C-F40B-4F05-9B02-B1863E1E0F7E@ietf.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <93dc2f19-2450-d1a0-416c-831794710b73@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 09:12:52 +1300
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On 31-Mar-22 00:51, Jay Daley wrote: > > >> On 30/03/2022, at 8:43 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote: >> >> >> On 3/22/22 14:24, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote: >>> > I actually don't think it interacts much with 2026 although I do wonder >>> >>> It's not so much that it interacts with 2026,etc. so much as that those >>> documents are wrong. >> >> RFC 2026 is from 1996, given its extreme age I'd say that it has weathered surprisingly well. >> >> In my opinion, stuff like HotRFC or *DISPATCH WGs doesn't need to - and *shouldn't* - be embedded in procedure documents. They belong in Tao-type Web pages that can - and will - be changed on a weekly or monthly basis. I'd go louder than "*shouldn't*". Even as loud as MUST NOT. Informality and flexibility at that stage of creating ideas is essential. >> >> Formal rules, embedded in the "stone" of BCPs, should be the absolute minimum we need to function, and change rarely. >> >> (I have a bee in my bonnet about those Web page changes being trackable as to what they changed and who authorized the change - but no more formal than putting the sources in a Git-accessible repo would accomplish. Different discussion.) > > Do you mean https://github.com/ietf/tao ? Jay, that serves as an audit trail but does *not* act as an open community discussion forum. We just discovered yesterday that some quite major changes to the Tao are considered "ready" by the very small group of contributors to that repo but have manifestly not been discussed by the community at large. Brian > > Jay > >> >> >>> >>> > is contributing to general delays and some people's sense that it is >>> > impossible to get real work done in the IETF in any efficient and >>> > timely way. >>> >>> I would say that it's contributing to a sense that people don't know what the >>> flavour of the day is. >>> >>> > While, as work-proposing mechanisms, the tone is certainly different >>> > (especially along the fear of being attacked dimension you mention), >>> > I'm not sure whether HotRFC is significantly different from the BarBOFs >>> > of yesteryear. >>> >>> Actual BarBOFs, in bars with napkins and beer (and no remote things to get in >>> the way), would be before HotRFC :-) >>> >>> -- >>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works >>> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >>> >>> >>> >> >
- HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation Aaron Falk
- Re: HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participat… Michael Richardson
- Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call… John C Klensin
- RE: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call… Border, John
- Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call… Michael Richardson
- Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participat… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call… Jay Daley
- Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call… Brian E Carpenter