RE: Minutes and jabber logs

["Gray, Eric" <[e-mail]>]

List of attendees?  Surely that is actually independent of the minutes... 

--> -----Original Message-----
--> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:[e-mail]] 
--> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 6:14 AM
--> To: David Harrington
--> Cc: [e-mail]
--> Subject: Re: Minutes and jabber logs
--> 
--> Just a reminder of what our process rules (RFC 2418) say:
--> 
-->     All working group sessions (including those held 
--> outside of the IETF
-->     meetings) shall be reported by making minutes available.  These
-->     minutes should include the agenda for the session, an 
--> account of the
-->     discussion including any decisions made, and a list of 
--> attendees. The
-->     Working Group Chair is responsible for insuring that 
--> session minutes
-->     are written and distributed, though the actual task may 
--> be performed
-->     by someone designated by the Working Group Chair. The 
--> minutes shall
-->     be submitted in printable ASCII text ...
--> 
--> We don't insist on the list of attendees when that is in 
--> the blue sheets,
--> but it's clear that the minutes have to be readable ("an 
--> account of the
--> discussion including any decisions made") and that is not usually
--> the state of a raw jabber log. It's important, since the 
--> decisions taken
--> in a meeting have to be confirmed on the list - if the minutes are
--> properly written, it's enough to ask for agreement on the minutes.
--> 
--> A carefully edited jabber log can of course be just fine.
--> 
--> (All of this applies equally to meetings at IETF sites, 
--> interim meetings,
--> WG conference calls, and WG jabber conferences - readable 
--> minutes must be
--> agreed on the list.)
--> 
-->      Brian
--> 
--> 
--> David Harrington wrote:
--> > Hi,
--> > 
--> > I would not like to see raw jabber logs included as part of the
--> > minutes. The signal-to-noise ratio is way too low in many 
--> meetings.
--> > 
--> > Jabber logs written by a scribe do not do a good job 
--> representing the
--> > body language and the nuances of speech that may be important to
--> > really understand what a person said. I would also be 
--> concerned that
--> > there are side-discussions in jabber that are not relayed 
--> to the whole
--> > room; including those side conversations as a reflection 
--> of what was
--> > said in the meeting is simply misleading. 
--> > 
--> > It is the chair's job to provide a summary of the meeting for the
--> > mailing list to see what was discussed and "decided". I 
--> do not think
--> > the chair should be allowed to evade this responsibility by simply
--> > posting a quick summary and the raw jabber logs to the 
--> mailing list as
--> > the official minutes.
--> > 
--> > David Harrington
--> > [e-mail] 
--> > [e-mail]
--> > [e-mail]
--> > 
--> > 
--> > 
--> >>-----Original Message-----
--> >>From: Spencer Dawkins [mailto:[e-mail]] 
--> >>Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:18 AM
--> >>To: [e-mail]
--> >>Subject: Re: Meetings in other regions
--> >>
--> >>
--> >>>That said, and given the difficulties of balancing competing
--> >>>priorities in site location, it seems reasonable to me to make
--> >>>a decent, good-faith effort without getting overly bogged down
--> >>>in "where should we meet?" discussions, and really try to get
--> >>>the remote participation thing nailed down a little better.  The
--> >>>ratio of good to bad remote meeting input has improved a lot
--> >>>over the past year or so but there are still too many working
--> >>>groups without a Jabber scribe in the room (which prevents remote
--> >>>listeners from providing inputs), etc.
--> >>
--> >>OK, this is only a thought, and I'm out of the process 
--> >>improvement business 
--> >>anyway, but I've been seeing a consistent improvement in the 
--> >>quality of 
--> >>jabber logs for at least two years, and I'm wondering if 
--> >>there are working 
--> >>groups who would be willing to try "minutes = chair summary 
--> >>plus jabber 
--> >>logs" for a few IETFs (without what we usually think of 
--> as "detailed
--> > 
--> > 
--> >>minutes"), and see if this is actually workable.
--> >>
--> >>I'm a many-time repeat offender as WG note-taker, and am 
--> >>watching my notes 
--> >>look more and more like a jabber log with only one jabberer; 
--> >>the advantages 
--> >>of jabber (in my experience) are
--> >>
--> >>- it's nice for the note-taker to be able to participate in 
--> >>the meeting - as 
--> >>an extreme case, in the SIPPING Ad Hoc on Friday, Gonzalo and 
--> >>Mary handed me 
--> >>the mike about twenty times, but very litte of what I said 
--> >>appeared in the 
--> >>notes, and it's worse when someone is already talking when I 
--> >>stop talking. 
--> >>That's typical in my experience. With Jabber, people can type 
--> >>until I get 
--> >>back to my seat.
--> >>
--> >>- It's really nice when I misquote, or mis-attribute, 
--> >>something that was 
--> >>said and another jabberer corrects it right away. This is SO 
--> >>much better 
--> >>than the WG chair having to listen to the audio stream to 
--> >>check my notes 
--> >>after some number of days has elapsed (and sometimes all the 
--> >>chair can tell 
--> >>from the audio is that I got it wrong, without knowing what 
--> >>"right" would 
--> >>have been).
--> >>
--> >>- and, obviously, this works better for remote participants 
--> >>(what's the 
--> >>alternative - send e-mail to the list?)
--> >>
--> >>Now that all this stuff is on the IETF website, it should be 
--> >>more enduring 
--> >>than if the jabber rooms and logs were hosted somewhere else.
--> >>
--> >>Of course, Jabber has to work; our wireless network has been 
--> >>pretty solid 
--> >>the last couple of meetings, but even so, if you offer a 
--> >>Jabber scribe an 
--> >>Ethernet connection and guaranteed power at the front of the 
--> >>room, that 
--> >>would be pretty compelling for me, most IETFs.
--> >>
--> >>Thanks,
--> >>
--> >>Spencer 
--> >>
--> >>
--> >>
--> >>_______________________________________________
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--> >>
--> > 
--> > 
--> > 
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