Re: 'monotonic increasing'
Joe Touch <touch@ISI.EDU> Sat, 18 February 2006 18:56 UTC
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FAXFt-00006Z-Eq; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:56:29 -0500
Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FAXFr-00006P-Rc for ietf@ietf.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:56:27 -0500
Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FAXFr-0005YU-DT for ietf@ietf.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:56:27 -0500
Received: from [128.9.176.73] ([128.9.176.73]) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id k1IItLq25543; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:55:21 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <43F76D94.1010404@isi.edu>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:55:16 -0800
From: Joe Touch <touch@ISI.EDU>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Tom.Petch" <sisyphus@dial.pipex.com>
References: <200601301716.JAA16888@gra.isi.edu> <002501c628af$62188600$0601a8c0@pc6> <014601c633dd$82948bc0$0601a8c0@pc6>
In-Reply-To: <014601c633dd$82948bc0$0601a8c0@pc6>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0
X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b
Cc: ietf <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 'monotonic increasing'
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2142339255=="
Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org
Tom.Petch wrote: > The phrase 'monotonic increasing' seems to be a Humpty-Dumpty one, used with a > different sense within RFC to that which I see defined elsewhere; and this > could lead to a reduction in security. > > Elsewhere - dictionaries, encyclopaedia, text books - I see it > defined so that when applied to a sequence of numbers, then each number is not > less than its predecessor, so that > 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 > 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 > 1 2.71828 3.14159 4.18 42 > are all monotonic increasing sequences whereas > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 8 10 > is not. There are two variants: monotonic increasing sequence where (i+1)>=(i) which applies to all of the above in math, monotonic always includes equality strictly monotonic increasing sequence where (i+1)>(i) which applies to all except the first two examples this is also known as "non decreasing", as Ken noted a constant sequence is one which is both monotonic increasing and monotonic decreasing. > Within RFC, mostly those related to security or network management, the context > of its use implies, in addition, one or more of > a) each number in the sequence is different (as in number used once) > b) each number is an integer > c) each number is one greater than its predecessor (as in message sequencing) . RFCs tend to describe integer sequences (vs. real or other kinds of numbers). Most of the uses I'm familiar with for sequence numbers in RFCs don't care if numbers are skipped, so I'm not sure this definition is typical. (can you give an example if not?) The above is an arithmetic integer sequence (constant delta between terms) that is strictly monotonic increasing and maximally compact. Informally, this might be referred to as a "sequential", but mathematically a sequence is just an ordered list of numbers. If (c) is changed to omit "one", this defines is monotonic increasing integer sequence. If (c) is changed to "at least one", this defines a strictly monotonic integer sequence. > Most likely, an implementation that conforms to the rest of the world definition > would interwork with one that conforms to the RFC one, but with some loss of > security, since numbers that are intended to be used only once could be reused. > > Q1) Can anyone point me to an authoritative source that endorses the RFC usage? > > Q2) Even so, since the rest of the world usage seems to be so widely defined, > should we change our terminology, eg specifying seqences to be strictly > increasing when that is what is needed? I would agree with Q2. Joe
_______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- RE: IETF65 hotel location Ed Juskevicius
- Re: IETF65 hotel location David Kessens
- IETF65 hotel location Pekka Savola
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Pekka Savola
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Dave Crocker
- Re: IETF65 hotel location John Levine
- RE: IETF65 hotel location Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Dave Crocker
- Re: IETF65 hotel location John Levine
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Michael Thomas
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Spencer Dawkins
- RE: IETF65 hotel location Robin Uyeshiro
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Marshall Eubanks
- RE: IETF65 hotel location David B Harrington
- RE: IETF65 hotel location Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: IETF65 hotel location lconroy
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Dave Crocker
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Marshall Eubanks
- RE: IETF65 hotel location Gray, Eric
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Bob Braden
- Re: IETF65 hotel location John Levine
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Dave Crocker
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Daniel Senie
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IETF65 hotel location JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Keith Moore
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Tom.Petch
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Tom.Petch
- 'monotonic increasing' Tom.Petch
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Ken Raeburn
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Frank Ellermann
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Elwyn Davies
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Francis Dupont
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Elwyn Davies
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Tom.Petch
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Ken Raeburn
- Re: 'monotonic increasing' Joe Touch
- Re: IETF65 hotel location Stephen Sprunk