Re: A couple of meta points -- IETF 100, Singapore, onwards

Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com> Tue, 24 May 2016 19:38 UTC

Return-Path: <olejacobsen@me.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FC612D183 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 May 2016 12:38:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.127
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=me.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cB9J-16sCpdQ for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 May 2016 12:38:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mr11p00im-asmtp003.me.com (mr11p00im-asmtp003.me.com [17.110.69.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 898B212D13D for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 24 May 2016 12:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from process-dkim-sign-daemon.mr11p00im-asmtp003.me.com by mr11p00im-asmtp003.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.36.0 64bit (built Sep 8 2015)) id <0O7P00E00529OL00@mr11p00im-asmtp003.me.com> for ietf@ietf.org; Tue, 24 May 2016 19:38:01 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from [10.1.10.8] (173-11-110-134-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.11.110.134]) by mr11p00im-asmtp003.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.36.0 64bit (built Sep 8 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0O7P00FLJ57CGU00@mr11p00im-asmtp003.me.com>; Tue, 24 May 2016 19:38:01 +0000 (GMT)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2016-05-24_09:,, signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1510270003 definitions=main-1605240234
Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 12:38:00 -0700
From: Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: A couple of meta points -- IETF 100, Singapore, onwards
In-reply-to: <ff65ada9-8285-101a-9b0c-f9dc26eb4cdb@nostrum.com>
Message-id: <alpine.OSX.2.01.1605241228030.97977@rabdullah.local>
References: <58598992-449C-4E2B-867D-12D04236AB3A@thinkingcat.com> <D7078B9A-AF4B-4D40-A8D7-CD7C42DE3218@cooperw.in> <D95B9AE8-5B5A-4882-A371-3C5825179FC8@thinkingcat.com> <cbbc3530-fe39-a9f3-084a-0458c9961f5b@nostrum.com> <1A202503-3128-4726-8E35-9AB76028D765@thinkingcat.com> <ff65ada9-8285-101a-9b0c-f9dc26eb4cdb@nostrum.com>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII"
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=me.com; s=4d515a; t=1464118681; bh=zzaiTXZ34FnikhmbE7ebQXmc53YQxYnUV0/pKRnYDRM=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-id:MIME-version:Content-type; b=n/19vFJDBjnDQ1X9P2yMYtRUpJq3T4rH2Kd0F6Fcy5Fdv15e/pW0mR3abdalbjfPo m+9Se3eYhJG1E2+CnK9lOH1jqFkxc041ZEPuGwUGr+HEuJsuT1WR4j2q4/QeRU3dEK kcS44w3BIosgxyoSbEss5ogM7aHwmbiTb6Sd2PGirO2p8eejjKI2ypUgvwzMtG/MPn swc2zEourzSpz3CWTWVQ/Mlar8DmRiULBUFtGTJFjUsgvdQac5nGgH8R3LDRb14x1C o6F3XpxOihOa5Gs9zfXsSsf/fob+Iq+sOlC+bTA16JkaH6u87U9iZmaGjC+AksTI+R CoppdQAVEaE3w==
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/a1OgvNuCiqIY7BmRTYG2_VPOzmc>
Cc: Leslie Daigle <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com>
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 19:38:04 -0000

On Tue, 24 May 2016, Adam Roach wrote:
>
> Be careful when using majority opinion to make decisions that affect 
> minority populations. Tyranny of the majority remains the Achilles 
> heel of democracies (and this is writ large in consensus building 
> exercises).
> 
> /a
> 

Yet we seem to do that all the time so let me ask you this:

Suppose we could predict# that some number of attendees from China 
would be denied* entry into the US or Canada or Argentina at an
upcoming meeting. Should we conclude that holding the meeting in
those locations is unacceptable and seek a relocation?

* By "denied" I mean no response received about visa application,
visa denied, visa approved months after meeting took place, etc.
In one IETF meeting, 77 people from China applied for letters of
invitation and visas, 27 were able to receive the visas in time
to attend.

# Predicting is hard, but we know that there are almost always
visa problems for the Chinese when we meet in the US or Canada.
Sometime it is much worse than other times.

Ole