RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support
"Michel Py" <michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us> Fri, 10 June 2011 03:38 UTC
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Subject: RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 20:38:40 -0700
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References: <58682A33-6566-4758-8F61-F01A33050F30@network-heretics.com><BB993627-C05B-43AD-BCE2-0A642AC2D947@apple.com><01O2A8KT5RZ600VHKR@mauve.mrochek.com> <20110610005758.BC2D110ABF81@drugs.dv.isc.org>
From: Michel Py <michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>
To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>, ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com
Cc: IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
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> Keith Moore wrote: > ... when the support people for a fairly well-established telco > haven't even heard of IPv6, it's hard to believe that it's going > to be available anytime soon. > [multiple people essentially reporting the same] > At this point in time $ISP has no immediate plans for implementation. I would say it's about time reality finally settles in. > Keith Moore wrote: > Meanwhile, 6to4 continues to work just fine for me. > So please explain again why it isn't premature to > discourage a valuable transition mechanism? On that one I agree with Keith; where's the rush? Although imperfect, 6to4 was an obvious path and its demise would be the failure of the IETF, following a long list of things that have been killed prematurely. > Ned wrote: > Anyone who doesn't believe we have a major marketing > problem here isn't paying attention. Hmm that is a point of view. You think you have a solution (IPv6) to what you perceive to be a problem (shortage of IPv4 addresses). However, some ISPs (and some other companies) do not consider it a problem, but a blessing. What the IPv4 shortage does is that it prevents new large players to enter the field, while allowing existing players to continue to do business as usual. As the shortage as been predicted for a decade, some (not all) have stockpiled addresses and are now reaping the benefits. In business, this situation is worth solid gold: it's called a monopoly. I'm fat and happy, and I want it to continue. In this case, it's even better: companies who benefit from it can argue that they are not the ones who created the monopoly, it was a built-in limitation of the system as created. Some may not like the parallel, but we have failed the IPv6 migration the same way we have failed the war on drugs. A while ago, there was this thing called the Tier-1 cartel. As originally designed, a very elusive club, with almost no way in and absolutely no tears when a member gets de-peered. Some have said that the cartel has failed as a system (due to a large number of multilateral peering agreements and other factors). But now what we have is a much larger number of largely unorganized but sharing the same goals entities: those who already have IPv4 addresses. It's even worse. When a resource becomes scare or limited, the big picture is not how much of it is available, or how much it costs. The big picture is how much of the market one does control. Now we are in the situation where everyone and their sister own a piece of the pie, and as long as the price of the pie keeps going up, they're going to cling to it. On top of the marketing problem you mentioned, you have a bigger one: there are many, many organizations out there that, even if you paid them to deploy IPv6, would not. Because IPv6 is a territorial threat to them. While the new or wannabe players would like the extra address space, the sad truth is that the already establish players don't like newly open spaces and prefer the territory control that comes with owning a piece of a limited land space. Michel.
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Mark Andrews
- Re: RE: RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 … Noel Chiappa
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Masataka Ohta
- one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Thomas Nadeau
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support james woodyatt
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support ned+ietf
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Michel Py
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Hector Santos
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Roger Jørgensen
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Stefan Winter
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Sabahattin Gucukoglu
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support otunte otueneh
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Stefan Winter
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support otunte otueneh
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support TJ
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Bert (IETF) Wijnen
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Brian E Carpenter
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support John C Klensin
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Tony Hain
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Brian E Carpenter
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support John C Klensin
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Joel Jaeggli
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Brian E Carpenter
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Michael Richardson
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support james woodyatt
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support John C Klensin
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Dave Cridland
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Brian E Carpenter
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Masataka Ohta
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Joel Jaeggli
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support james woodyatt
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support John C Klensin
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Mark Andrews
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Mark Andrews
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Masataka Ohta
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Mark Andrews
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support John Levine
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Michel Py
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Masataka Ohta
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support ned+ietf
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support John Levine
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Hamza GHARSALLAH
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Michael Richardson
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support John R. Levine
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Nathaniel Borenstein
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Michel Py
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Michel Py
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Doug Barton
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Michel Py
- Re: RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 supp… Cameron Byrne
- RE: RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 supp… Michel Py
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Jari Arkko
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support t.petch
- Re: RE: RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 … Cameron Byrne
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support t.petch
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Noel Chiappa
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Joel Jaeggli
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Ofer Inbar
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Steven Bellovin
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support t.petch
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Michel Py
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Tim Chown
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Ole Troan
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Tony Hain
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Joel Jaeggli
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Joel Jaeggli
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Keith Moore
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Tony Hain
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Noel Chiappa
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Mark Andrews
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Christian Huitema
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Mark Andrews
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Michel Py
- RE: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Noel Chiappa
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Ole Troan
- Re: one data point regarding native IPv6 support Noel Chiappa