Re: [Teas] Yangdoctors last call review of draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-08

[Robert Wilton <[e-mail]>]

Hi Xufeng,

Thanks for updating the modules to be NMDA compliant.  I think that 
getting structural consistency across the IETF YANG modules will make 
them far more compelling as a solution.

I noticed that some of the snippets of YANG tree output in the draft 
still illustrate using the "split oc-style config/state structure" and 
hence also need to be updated.  Probably this could be done as part of 
the WG LC.

To find the instances, just search the draft for "rw config" and "ro state".

Thanks,
Rob


On 02/07/2017 22:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>
> An updated revision of the TE topology model has been posted at 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-10.
>
> This new revision now contains the NMDA compliant module and a 
> companion “-state” module, after the I2RS topology model that we 
> augment has been update with a “-state” module.
>
> Now that this issue has been solved, the authors and contributors 
> think that the draft is ready for the last call.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Xufeng
>
> P.S. Because of the structure changes of the TE topology model, all 
> augmenting models need to be updated. Sorry for the short notice.
>
> *From:*Teas [mailto:[e-mail]] *On Behalf Of *Benoit Claise
> *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2017 6:46 AM
> *To:* Xufeng Liu <[e-mail]>; Robert Wilton 
> <[e-mail]>; Mahesh Jethanandani <[e-mail]>; 
> [e-mail]
> *Cc:* Benoit Claise <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; 
> [e-mail]
> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] Yangdoctors last call review of 
> draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-08
>
> Hi Xufeng,
>
>     Hi Benoit,
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: Benoit Claise [mailto:[e-mail]]
>
>         Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 6:12 AM
>
>         To: Robert Wilton<[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>; Xufeng Liu<[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>
>         Mahesh Jethanandani<[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>         Cc:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>;[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>;[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Teas] Yangdoctors last call review of draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-
>
>         08
>
>         Dear draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo authors,
>
>             Hi Xufeng,
>
>             OK, by tooling, I don't mean the pyang plugins that I have been
>
>             working on to convert between different types of models.  As you
>
>             aware, the TE YANG models can easily be converted to NMDA style since
>
>             I have already done it
>
>             (https://github.com/rgwilton/ietf-models-to-combined).
>
>             My comment actually relates to the fact the structure used by TE YANG
>
>             modules don't match any other YANG modules - they are using their own
>
>             unique style of structure.
>
>         This is an important issue to resolve.
>
>             Today, there are three common styles of modules:
>
>             (1) IETF style split config/state trees (e.g. ietf-interfaces).
>
>             (2) IETF NMDA style combined config/state trees (i.e. where all IETF
>
>             modules are heading to).
>
>             (3) OpenConfig style modules with the config/state containers
>
>             immediately above the config leaves.
>
>             Tooling is likely to be optimized to work with these model structures,
>
>             but the TE modules do not fit into any of the three styles above.
>
>             They are a yet another OpenConfig-like style, but that is different
>
>             enough that tooling that is designed to work with OpenConfig style
>
>             YANG modules would likely not work with the TE YANG modules.
>
>             Specifically, for clients that expecting to work with an OpenConfig
>
>             style YANG module, then if it knows the path to config leaf X, then
>
>             they would expect the applied config value to be available at the path
>
>             "../state/X".  But, this doesn't hold for the structure being used in
>
>             the TE YANG models.
>
>             I believe strongly that the models being produced by organizations
>
>             should be structures in a consistent way, hence why I think that the
>
>             published standard version of the TE YANG modules should immediately
>
>             align to the NMDA style.
>
>         Agreed.
>
>         Here is the OPS and RTG AD message:
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/msg18252.html
>
>         I understand that the I2RS topology YANG modules will be improved to the
>
>         NMDA style.
>
>     [Xufeng] The I2RS topology model is already NMDA style, but the NMDA models are not immediately implementable without NETCONF/RESTCONF protocol update. We will need the "-state" module for the I2RS topology model (and for all the top-level models) for now.
>
> Adding -state to the Appendix is a possibility.
> "In all cases, the NMDA and non-NMDA modules SHOULD be published in 
> the same document, with NMDA modules in the document main body and the 
> non-NMDA modules in an Appendix."
> See https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/msg18252.html
>
>     While the NMDA is nice, the NMDA discussions have already significantly delayed publishing new models, and doing NMDA without staging will further delay the process.
>
> This is not solving the important issue brought up by Rob Witlon:
>
>     My comment actually relates to the fact the structure used by TE
>     YANG modules don't match any other YANG modules - they are using
>     their own unique style of structure.
>
> Regards, B.
>
>     Thanks,  Xufeng
>
>         Regards, Benoit
>
>             Thanks,
>
>             Rob
>
>             On 22/06/2017 04:16, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>
>                 Hi Rob,
>
>                 While the tooling is very nice to have, especially for writing new
>
>                 models or converting models, we do not have to use it for every
>
>                 model. It seems not necessary to use the tooling on this model for
>
>                 now. We already know that we can manually convert it to NMDA style if
>
>                 needed.
>
>                 Thanks,
>
>                 - Xufeng
>
>                     -----Original Message-----
>
>                     From: Robert Wilton [mailto:[e-mail]]
>
>                     Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 5:34 AM
>
>                     To: Xufeng Liu<[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>; Mahesh Jethanandani
>
>                     <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>;[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>                     Cc:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>;[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>
>                     [e-mail]
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>                     Subject: Re: [Teas] Yangdoctors last call review of
>
>                     draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-
>
>                     08
>
>                     Hi Xufeng,
>
>                     On 12/06/2017 22:28, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>
>                         Hi Mahesh,
>
>                         Thank you much for the review. We have submitted an updated draft
>
>                     (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-09) to
>
>                     address these issues. More detailed explanations are put below
>
>                     inline.
>
>                         If the responses and updates are satisfactory, we are ready for the
>
>                         last call.
>
>                         Best regards,
>
>                         - Xufeng
>
>                             -----Original Message-----
>
>                             From: Mahesh Jethanandani [mailto:[e-mail]]
>
>                             Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:44 AM
>
>                             To:[e-mail]
>                             <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>                             Cc:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>;[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>
>                             [e-mail]
>                             <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>                             Subject: Yangdoctors last call review of
>
>                             draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-08
>
>                             Reviewer: Mahesh Jethanandani
>
>                             Review result: Ready with Issues
>
>                             Document reviewed: draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-08
>
>                             Status: Ready with Issues
>
>                             I am not an expert in Traffic Engineering. This review is looking
>
>                             at the draft from a YANG perspective. With that said, I have
>
>                             marked it as “Ready
>
>                     with Issues”
>
>                             because of some of the points discussed below.
>
>                             Summary:
>
>                             This document defines a YANG data model for representing,
>
>                             retrieving and manipulating TE Topologies. The model serves as a
>
>                             base model that other technology specific TE Topology models can
>
>         augment.
>
>                             Comments:
>
>                             Almost all the containers in the model are presence containers. Is
>
>                             there a reason why they have to be presence containers? Note, that
>
>                             presence containers are containers whose existence itself
>
>                             represents configuration data. What particular configuration data
>
>                             is each container
>
>                     representing in itself?
>
>                         [Xufeng] Containers that use “presence” are:
>
>                              - Container “underlay”
>
>                                o  We have changed 13 occurrences of such containers to be
>
>                         not
>
>                     presence container.
>
>                              - Container “te” under augmentation
>
>                                o  To indicate that “TE” is enabled (configuration data)
>
>                                o  Also used to do augmentation. The “presence” statement can
>
>                     prevent the mandatory child from affecting augmented base model.
>
>                              - /nw:networks/nw:network/nw:network-types/te-topology!
>
>                                o  A mechanism required by I2RS topology model to specify the
>
>                     topology type.
>
>                             It is difficult to co-relate the diagram with the model itself
>
>                             because of different terms being used to define different parts of
>
>                             the model.
>
>                             There is “TE Topology Model” and then there is “Generic TE
>
>                             Topology
>
>                     Model”.
>
>                             Are these one and the same models? If so, a common term for both
>
>                             of them would be helpful.
>
>                         [Xufeng] Yes. These two terms are the same. Figure 12, Figure 13,
>
>                         and relevant
>
>                     descriptions have been updated to make the document consistent.
>
>                             There is extensive use of groupings in the document. However, not
>
>                             all instances of groupings are used multiple number of times.
>
>                             Where they are not being repeated, it would be better to move the
>
>                             grouping directly where the uses statement resides. Case in point
>
>                             the grouping
>
>                     connectivity-label-restriction-list.
>
>                         [Xufeng] We have removed the following groupings
>
>                                te-link-augment
>
>                                te-node-augment
>
>                                te-termination-point-augment
>
>                                te-topologies-augment
>
>                                te-topology-augment
>
>                                te-link-state-underlay-attributes
>
>                                te-node-state-derived-notification
>
>                                te-topology-type
>
>                         The remaining groupings have been kept so that we can:
>
>                              - Share the groupings in this model
>
>                              - Prepare to be shared by a model augmenting this model
>
>                              - Prevent a grouping or configuration section from being too long
>
>                              - Improve readability
>
>                             The split between config and state containers does not seem to
>
>                             follow any particular pattern.
>
>                         [Xufeng] The pattern is clear:
>
>                         For each manageable entity (object), there is a config container
>
>                         and state
>
>                     container. The configurable properties go into the config container
>
>                     and state properties go into the state container. Such objects are
>
>                     identified by a list item or a presence container so that the
>
>                     “create”, “delete”, and “modify”
>
>                     operations
>
>                     can be performed on them. The non-presence containers do not
>
>                     represent configuration data so they do not introduce such objects.
>
>                             It is neither a top level split, as is the case with existing IETF
>
>                             models,
>
>                         [Xufeng] We could not do top level split because the base I2RS
>
>                         network
>
>                     topology model
>
>                     (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-
>
>                     12) that we augment does not have the top-level split (for its own
>
>                     reasons).
>
>                             nor do they follow the OpenConfig style of splitting config and
>
>                             state under each relevant leaf,
>
>                         [Xufeng] The pattern is consistent with this style in principle,
>
>                         with some
>
>                     adjustments to fit to our multiple levels of hierarchy.
>
>                     This is effectively a new forth style of YANG models that is not
>
>                     consistent with any of the three existing styles, i.e.:
>
>                         - Current IETF config/state split model style
>
>                         - NMDA combined config/state tree
>
>                         - OpenConfig split config/state containers immediately above the
>
>                     config true leaves.
>
>                     Tooling that it designed to work with OpenConfig models will need
>
>                     customization to work with these TE models because the config/state
>
>                     containers will not be where the tooling expects them to be.
>
>                     Thanks,
>
>                     Rob
>
>             .
>