[Int-area] Re: ipv8 proposal.

[Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>]

Herbie,


   1. What does it do that IPv6 doesn’t already do?
   a) IPv8 is in-place backwards compatible no dual stacks.
   b) IPv8 has two default routes an odd and an even and load balances
   traffic across those two routes, and can run active, active, active standby.
   c) IPv8 uses ASNs to organize IP addresses and WHOIS to manage routes,
   and therefore every route on the Internet is Known.
   d) IPv8 integrates the services of DHCP, DNS, NTP, WHOIS, ACL, XLATE and
   NETLOG into one platform managed and configured by OATH
   e) IPv8 kept 100% IPv4 addressing scheme that the world is familiar with
   it is not a "BIT EXTENSION"
           Meaning there are two parts to the address ASN --- IP Address.
   This is entirely different and easier to manage than 2^128
   f) IPv8 is a sequential upgrade, and is a proper superset of IPv8, and
   will be upgraded over a few years as a cycle.
   g) IPv8 has built in VPN connections doing VPN over HTTPs.
   h) IPv8 uses OAUTH / JWT / NETLOG ACCT to replace Radius and Diameter.
   i) IPv8 peers at ASN and therefore each ASN has 3B addresses.
   j) Improved East-West security each IPv8 client can run in isolate,
   vlan, vrf, or guest mode without interaction from L2.
   k) IPv8 has a reserved address for 100.x.x.x ASN to Regional Inter
   Network Excange
   l) IPv8 has only one routing protocol BGP advanced.
   m) IPv8 uses Anycast v4 to route from IPv4 routers and switches, and
   therefor the FIB doesn't need to be upgraded to route.

   2. So I am not sure what your asking me about in 2, the TCO to build
   IPv8 per vendor or the ROI for those vendors or the ROI for the customers.
   1. The Total Cost to build it per reference is
   1.1  The core of man's year with AI. Once Linux is built the rest of the
   world will follow.
   1.2  2 Man years -- ZoneServer is a WebServer with Advance DHCP, DNS,
   NTP, OATH, JWT, UPGRADE, Config, WHOIS
   1.3  2 Man years -- BGP, -- OSPF ISIS deprecated vendor lifs for CF, and
   EIGRP, and RIP unsupported.

   3. ROI for Vendors, they spend roughly 5M to implement IPv8, and the
   ones based on NETBSD or Linux spend Zero. There are peole already building
   reference builds since Monday. Charge an extra 10% for the IPv8 feature
   set.  That will represent 5-10B more in vendors pockets.

   4. If you meant ROI for companies, well a IPv6 is a Never Return on
   Investment, whereas the Audit and Insurance community is going to drive the
   move to IPv8 as it will be the only certified internal networking protocl
   because of the increase security, isolation.
   1. M&A Merger of two large companies, without IPv8, months, and years of
   planning merging the 10.x.x.x with IPv8 assign each company a 127.x.x.x ASN
   and it fixes the problem.
   2. Training, there is ZERO retraining of this mechaism as all of the
   IPv4 is immediately understood.
   3. Benefit of Zone server, ASN tracking cheaper inter exchange
   4. Fully redundant odd/even networking without buying expensive parts
   5. All of the parts will be upgraded via standard hardware and software
   turnover.

   HTH,

Jamie




On Tue, Apr 21, 2026 at 5:41 PM Robinson, Herbie <
[e-mail]> wrote:

> I have two questions regarding why the group members should devote any
> time reading this.
>
>
>
>    1. What does it do that IPv6 doesn’t already do?
>    2. From numbers I have seen, it took around 5 person-years to port
>    IPv6 from another OS and 10-20 person years to develop it from scratch.
>    When we go to management to ask them to spend a few million dollars
>    developing IPv8, how much new business will that generate?  In other words
>    who will need to use it bad enough to spend extra money to get it?  Don’t
>    forget to adjust your calculations to account for the prediction (based on
>    IPv6 adoption)) that it will be several decades before any return on
>    investment is seen.
>
>
>
> *From:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2026 3:53 PM
> *To:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* call xor <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> *Subject:* [Int-area] Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> *Penguin Solutions Security Checkpoint:** External email. Please make
> sure you trust this source before clicking links or opening attachments.*
>
> Sotrdg,
>
>
>
> New ip addresses is the number 1 way of malware.
>
>
>
> You can shut it off, and it's a feature.
>
>
>
> The reason i built ipv8 was not addresses that's solved. Manageability is
> severely broken.
>
>
>
> Jamie
>
>
>
> On Tue., Apr. 21, 2026, 4:44 p.m. sotrdg sotrdg, <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
> LOL blocking ip directly usage due to prevent scamming. You have proven my
> point you break things.
>
>
>
> If that were true, then just fking ipv6. Full stop
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 22, 2026 3:04:15 AM
> *To:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* call xor <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]
> >
> *Subject:* Re: [Int-area] Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> sotrdg,
>
>
>
> The translation is done through DHCP, DNS, and XLATE8
>
> Every IP assignment through DHCP creates an A8 record and an A record.
> Every Client running LLDP populates the Common Name (CNAME) as the created
> name
>
> So your DHCP server on 127.10.12.33 ASN gives out the lease 10.50.10.20
> and puts an A and A8 in the DNS server
>
>  10.50.10.20-vlan50-127.10.12.33.local.domain   A8
> 127.10.12.33.10.50.10.20
>  10.50.10.20-vlan50-127.10.12.33.local.domain  A    10.50.10.254 (the zone
> server)
>
> And if the LLDP name is WebServer1
>   DNS
>     WebServer1  CNAME 10.50.10.20-vlan50-127.10.12.33.local.domain
>
> The XLATE8 server sees WebServer1 is the CNAME, and a DNS8 request returns
> an A8 record, and a IPv4 returns the address of the Zone Server which it
> translates into the A8 that was just looked up, and puts that in the
> destination, and sends it on its way.
>
> The one thing it cannot do until an upgrade is done is is
> http://65211.100.2.2.3 and in IPv8 generally direct IP addresses are
> blocked to keep down the Scamming.  Its an ACL8 rule, no DNS resolution
> Block.  Thats why its important the DHCP, ACL, DNS, WHOIS, XLATE are all
> working together in harmony.
>
> Jamie
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2026 at 1:34 PM sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> still if i use browser or whatever app to connect to http://ipv8:8080/ on
> a device that has no update, how does this shit going to work? kernel does
> not even understand
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 22, 2026 12:27:17 AM
> *To:* call xor <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <
> [e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Int-area] Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> Cui Yong,
>
>
> The point is about arp and dhcp. The arp8 to arp4 is 50 ms apart and once
> traffic is initiated the rest of arps happen in the l2 broadcast domain.
>
>
>
> It's in one broadcast domain.
>
>
>
> Once estabished arp is just background and doesn't halt traffic it just
> refreshed every five minutes.
>
>
>
> Hth,
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2026 at 11:38 AM call xor <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hi Jamie,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the ARP8 fallback explanation.
>
> This raises a follow-up concern for me.
>
>
>
> You described: ARP8 query first (ASN+IP), if no MAC returned, fall back to
> ARP4 (IP only).
>
>
>
> In a mixed broadcast domain (some IPv8, some IPv4-only), this means every
> communication attempt generates two rounds of ARP broadcasts — ARP8 first,
> timeout, then ARP4. This effectively doubles ARP traffic.
>
>
>
> My questions:
>
>
>
> 1. What is the defined timeout before ARP8 falls back to ARP4? Is this
> configurable?
>
>
>
> 2. Does ARP8 work within existing 802.1Q VLANs? Or is a new broadcast
> domain isolation mechanism needed?
>
>
>
> 3. In a database cluster scenario (e.g., PostgreSQL streaming
> replication), if both nodes run IPv8 but ARP8 resolution adds timeout
> delays during network micro-jitter — could this additional latency cause
> heartbeat failures and trigger split-brain?
>
>
>
> We have experienced split-brain incidents caused by sub-second network
> delays in production. Any additional ARP resolution overhead in mixed
> environments is a real concern.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Cui Yong
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *发件人**:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *发送时间**:* 2026年4月21日 22:21
> *收件人**:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>
> *抄送**:* [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> *主**题**:* [Int-area] Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> Sotrdg
>
>
>
> That's another good question.
>
>
>
> 1. Ipv6 will still be there
>
>
>
> 2. Zone server (which will be built on the edge, home router has a 4 to 8
> xlate in it.
>
>
>
> 2.1 This works by Valid ipv8 addresses must have an A8 record in DNS it
> could of just been an A record but i wanted it to be clear.
>
>
>
> 2.2 your home or edge routers accepts www.google.com looks up the a8
> address and passes back an v4 address and keeps a table that your trying to
> get to this address.
>
>
>
> 2.3 It's exactly how nat works today except it's built in one service.
>
>
>
> Windows S awful.
>
>
>
> But the edge routers are more secure and private because in the
> specifation you can't sent jwt beyond the edge without confirmation. Your
> in control of your house. There are ipv8 vpns built in.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue., Apr. 21, 2026, 9:14 a.m. sotrdg sotrdg, <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
> how do they run forever when all the internet address becomes so called
> ipv8? They won't be able to even connect to internet. Not mentioning all
> these consumer devices now rely on cloud and wifi to even set up an account
> to install apps. Google does not even want you to install 3rd party
> applications. And also windows S mode junk.
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2026 6:35:15 PM
> *To:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> Sotrdg
>
>
>
> I don't what part your not getting. Old devices run forever.
>
>
>
> The privacy and security is increased not decreased.
>
>
>
> Jamie
>
>
>
> On Tue., Apr. 21, 2026, 6:12 a.m. sotrdg sotrdg, <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
> still that is to force to put 1 billion fine android phones and many other
> smart devices into minefields just to enforce a massive survilence state
> with age verifications considering inflation is so bad now and average joe
> could not pay anything and become incels?
>
>
>
> If you can force 1 billion consumers to be obsolete then why not force
> that to those companies to just use the Fking ipv6m
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2026 3:44:59 PM
> *To:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> Sotrdg,
>
>
>
> Ok thats a good question. And let's just do arp8 alone as that will or
> might help you see why there is a sockaddr_inet8.
>
>
>
> Arp8 needs to be able to set a type for ipv8 and arp for an asn + ip. It
> doesn't fit inside of ipv4.
>
>
>
> So arp8 sends the asn + ip request in an arp8 type remembering you might
> have 2 sets of ip addresses on the same vlan.
>
>
>
> Then if that doesn't return a MAC the next step is to then call the
> current socket4 with just the ip address. If that returns an ip address
> then it works.
>
>
>
> Some protocols must try the extended address first or be capable of it.
>
>
>
> Icmp8 arp8 are both examples of that.
>
>
>
> DHCP8 is a slightly different it doesn't give back inet address 8 it gives
> back inet version 4 with an option field set to the asn, 2 routes.
>
>
>
> Ipv8 will be the new ip and part of Android, ios, Windows, Linux, Mac
> updates.
>
>
>
> Devices that have locked down bootloaders it depends if it's rogue or
> expired.
>
>
>
> 1. The manufacture signs it and releases it.
>
>
>
> 2. It still gets a dhcp v4 address and runs in dhcp4 mode.
>
>
>
> 3. It gets a DHCP6 address and runs in ipv6 mode
>
>
>
> 4. If it's hacked then rule 2 and 3 apply.
>
>
>
> You can run in ipv4 v6 mode for infinity.
>
>
>
> There is a guesstimate that there are 5 billion corp devices on ipv4 with
> no migration plan.
>
>
>
> Ipv8 is about fixing this.
>
>
>
> Jamie
>
>
>
> Jamie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue., Apr. 21, 2026, 4:06 a.m. sotrdg sotrdg, <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
> how does this not break existing devices? If a device that cannot get
> patches with locked down bootloaders sees this "ipv8" address, how does it
> interpret it? In fact the proposal even needs a sockaddr_in8 type. This not
> only breaks at OS level but app level.
>
>
>
> Just stop this stupid AI slop
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2026 8:10:58 AM
> *To:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> Sorrdg,
>
>
>
> It has no impact on any equipment today or tomorrow.
>
>
>
> IPv8 ⊃ IPv4 so it just is additive to current devices.
>
>
>
> So good luck no need to respond.
>
>
>
> On Mon., Apr. 20, 2026, 8:26 p.m. sotrdg sotrdg, <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
> i am very happy with ipv6, fuck you ipv8 junk that immediately makes 1
> billion android phone obsolete
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2026 7:20:42 AM
> *To:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <
> [e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> Thank-you for your input.
>
>
>
> On Mon., Apr. 20, 2026, 8:19 p.m. sotrdg sotrdg, <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
> Fuck ipv8. just fuck you
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2026 7:12:10 AM
> *To:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> just stop your crappy Ai slop
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2026 6:54:34 AM
> *To:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> I appreciate your professionalism.
>
>
>
> On Mon., Apr. 20, 2026, 7:08 p.m. sotrdg sotrdg, <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
> just f these companies
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Jamie Thain <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2026 4:52:11 AM
> *To:* sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: I STRONGLY OPPOSE ipv8 proposal.
>
>
>
> Sotrdg,
>
> 1. IP v8 has the capability of 18 Quintillion addresses. IPv6 can be
> filtered as much as IPv4.
>
> 2. IP v8 is an upgrade to IPv4 and has no deprecation path of IPv6
>
> 3. IP v8 will be an upgrade of IPv4 at the OS system, and doesn't require
> any kind of boot loading protocol, it will be native to the OS.
>
> 4. IP v8 has 18 Quintillion addresses there is an ip address for every
> square decimeter on earth.
>
> 5. The draft says it is less than 50% adopted. Its well adopted in
> super-scalars, cell phones, but almost no adoption in companies.
>
> HTH.
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2026 at 1:01 PM sotrdg sotrdg <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> 1. IPv8 makes Governments across the globe much easier to block IP and
> censor internet. I am from China and i use ipv6 to bypass the great
> firewall. ipv8 makes this much easier to block since it reuses existing
> ipv4 (which is blocked for sure) and its address space is very small. this
> ipv8 proposal is just another attempt of big tech and governments around
> the world tries to kill open internet.
>
>
>
> 2. Implementing ipv8 means deprecating ipv6 which is a huge problem.  it
> is not really solving anything
>
>
>
> 3. it is not easy to implement ipv8 at all. Android OEMs locks down
> bootloaders and not mentioning routers too. That means billions of devices
> immediately e-waste since they will not get updated to support ipv8. It is
> just another N+1 problem.
>
>
>
> 4. ipv8's address space is WAY too small. 2^64 may be enough for
> representing a machine but it does not count things like virtual machines
> which might use tons of ip addresses for a very good reason.
>
>
>
> 5. To say ipv6 is not adopted is very untrue since i am using ipv6 every
> day to bypass internet censorship. All my traffic, even this email comes
> from ipv6. this is just completely bs proposal
>
>