Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt
Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> Wed, 29 March 2023 05:14 UTC
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 14:14:06 +0900
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To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
Cc: "Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com" <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>, "alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr" <alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt
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Hi Tianran, I believe that there is a strong interest in the WG to see IOAM Yang data model include IOAM-DEX, regardless of the semantics of how IOAM and IOAM-DEX have been defined in respective RFCs. In my opinion, it is about the usefulness of the YANG data model, not about formal naming. I feel that it is well-understood already that, strictly speaking, IOAM-DEX behavior in regard to transporting operational state and telemetry information is different from how IOAM behaves. But, I am also convinced that that difference has insignificant impact on the YANG data model which is far smaller then staring a new draft. I think it is time to set semantics aside and look into adding support of IOAM-DEX into the YANG data model document. Let me know how I can help. Regards, Greg On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 1:44 PM Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com> wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > Greg> Whether IOAM DEX is an integral part of IOAM? > Thomas> Yes I believe it is. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9197#section-4.1 describes the > initial option types where > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#abstract adds an IOAM > option type called direct export. > > ZTR> I understand what Greg concerned is from the definition. In RFC9197: > " IOAM records OAM information within the packet while the packet > traverses a particular network domain." > This is different from the IOAM-DEX behavior. > > > > -----邮件原件----- > 发件人: Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com [mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com] > 发送时间: 2023年3月27日 9:17 > 收件人: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com; > alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr; gregimirsky@gmail.com > 抄送: ippm@ietf.org > 主题: RE: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt > > Dear Tianran, Dear Greg > > Thanks a lot for the summary my apology for late reply. > > I have been reviewing Greg's comments and below my reply. > > Greg> The scope of the IOAM YANG data model - is limited to configuration > or also includes the presentation of IOAM data types defined in RFC 9197? > Thomas> I suggest to change the following sentence in the abstract from > > "This document defines a YANG module for the IOAM function." > > To > > "This document defines a YANG module for configuring IOAM functions." > > > Greg> Whether IOAM DEX is an integral part of IOAM? > Thomas> Yes I believe it is. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9197#section-4.1 describes the > initial option types where > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#abstract adds an IOAM > option type called direct export. > > Greg> Should the IOAM YANG data model enable the configuration of an IOAM > node in IOAM-DEX trace mode? > Thomas> Yes it should. Reviewing > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-04#section-3.4, > and looking at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#section-3.2, > I think the configuration options proposed matches what can be configured. > However, looking at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#section-6, I believe this > needs to be addressed in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang. > > Greg> Whether the control of only IOAM operational state (enable/disable) > on a transit node creates a new DDoS attack vector against that node. > Consequently, how can this risk be mitigated? > Thomas> This has already been answered in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#section-6. I suggest that > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang#section-5draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang > is expanded by describing how the following objective > > - Selective DEX (Section 3.1.1) is applied by IOAM encapsulating nodes in > order to limit the potential impact of DEX attacks to a small fraction of > the traffic. > > Described in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#section-6 can > be addressed by configuring filter. Since data export is out of scope, I > believe the following objectives > > - Rate limiting of exported traffic (Section 3.1.2) is applied by IOAM > nodes in order to prevent overloading attacks and to significantly limit > the scale of amplification attacks. > - IOAM encapsulating nodes are required to avoid pushing the DEX > Option-Type into IOAM exported packets (Section 3.1.2), thus preventing > some of the amplification and export loop scenarios. > > Are out of scope for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang. Would you agree? > > Greg> Should the model support the presentation of the looped-back IOAM > packet with the Loopback flag set? > Thomas> You are referring to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9322. > I think it should. Yes. > > Greg> Should the model support the use of (configuration and presentation > of the test outcomes) the Active IOAM flag? > Thomas> Not sure if I understand this question. If it means wherever > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang should cover operational metrics describing how > many packets have been sent, this would indeed from a network operator > point of view beneficial. > > Greg> Should the configuration of IOAM over IPv6 and/or NSH be part of > this document? > Thomas> Could you elaborate why configuration is different depending > packet encapsulation being used. > > Best wishes > Thomas > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 3:19 PM > To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-VNC-HCS <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>; > alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr > Cc: ippm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt > > Hi Thomas, > > Please see the discussions during the LC, between Greg and me. > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailarchive.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fmsg%2Fippm%2Fs91KTSsmbHMotegy9f-6zWUSUWw&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VYnv4VnFOg3zF665A7%2Fog6twTHHnQ5WLjIgJDxLC5JE%3D&reserved=0 > > At last, there are still several concerns as follows. The authors > discussed, we can eliminate most of the questions by excluding IOAM-DEX in > this draft. > > - The scope of the IOAM YANG data model - is limited to configuration > or also includes the presentation of IOAM data types defined in RFC > 9197? > - Whether IOAM DEX is an integral part of IOAM? > - Should the IOAM YANG data model enable the configuration of an IOAM > node in IOAM-DEX trace mode? > - Whether the control of only IOAM operational state (enable/disable) > on a transit node creates a new DDoS attack vector against that node. > Consequently, how can this risk be mitigated? > - Should the model support the presentation of the looped-back IOAM > packet with the Loopback flag set? > - Should the model support the use of (configuration and presentation > of the test outcomes) the Active IOAM flag? > - Should the configuration of IOAM over IPv6 and/or NSH be part of > this document? > > Cheers, > Tianran > > -----Original Message----- > From: mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com [mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 1:34 PM > To: Tianran Zhou <mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com>; mailto: > alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr > Cc: mailto:ippm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt > > Dear Tianran, > > I share Alex and Greg's concerns and would appreciate that you detail > where IOAM-DEX does not follow the IOAM definition and where IOAM options > adds complexity in YANG. I think this needs to be addresses within the > working group. I gladly support the discussion. > > Best wishes > Thomas > > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm <mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2023 9:17 AM > To: Alex Huang Feng <mailto:alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr>; Tianran Zhou > <mailto:zhoutianran=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > Cc: mailto:ippm@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt > > Hi Alex, > > There are several concerns from the WG wrt IOAM-DEX, including: > 1. IOAM-DEX does not follow the IOAM definition. Maybe we need a new > definition for both or exclude IOAM-DEX from this draft. > 2. The IOAM-DEX configuration may be different from other IOAM options > with more complexity. > > Follow the principle with max consensus, we decided to exclude IOAM-DEX > from this draft. So that it aligns rfc9197. > However, this yang model is still extensible. > We can cooperate on a new draft if you have interest. > > Best, > Tianran > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alex Huang Feng > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:45 PM > To: Tianran Zhou <mailto:zhoutianran=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > Cc: mailto:ippm@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt > > Hi Tianran, > > I think it is pity the IOAM-DEX was removed from the draft. I feel that > since it is already a standard, it should be in the draft. > Any reasons why it was removed? > > Cheers, > Alex > > > On 16 Feb 2023, at 12:15, Tianran Zhou <mailto:zhoutianran= > 40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > Hi WG, > > > > We just upload a new revision. > > The main updates include: > > 1. Remove the IOAM-DEX and two IOAM flags to align with rfc 9197. > > 2. Add max length constraint to both pre-allocated and incremental > tracing. > > 3. Add examples in the appendix. > > > > Your comments are welcome. > > > > Cheers, > > Tianran > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of mailto: > internet-drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2023 7:12 PM > > To: mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org > > Cc: mailto:ippm@ietf.org > > Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the > IETF. > > > > Title : A YANG Data Model for In-Situ OAM > > Authors : Tianran Zhou > > Jim Guichard > > Frank Brockners > > Srihari Raghavan > > Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt > > Pages : 28 > > Date : 2023-02-16 > > > > Abstract: > > In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records > > operational and telemetry information in user packets while the > > packets traverse a path between two points in the network. This > > document defines a YANG module for the IOAM function. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang%2F&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1ceA%2FAd2SIza0QdMw9oYXBgz36%2BIroJE322LKUC%2FO8M%3D&reserved=0 > > > > There is also an htmlized version available at: > > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7R3rriq85frIAQ6fRTlgAfzYZjw6hGNiWp3nAVxhExo%3D&reserved=0 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fauthor-tools.ietf.org%2Fiddiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2Bt6pmx0st%2FqTmRViIasYVNvUSuBKlwBWYAUkD%2FifZ%2Bs%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org: > :internet-drafts > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > mailto:ippm@ietf.org > > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nRuMA34DFp%2BDGGEfejBt2xD9WAOtjhIv4DZVlvEVX3U%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > mailto:ippm@ietf.org > > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nRuMA34DFp%2BDGGEfejBt2xD9WAOtjhIv4DZVlvEVX3U%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > mailto:ippm@ietf.org > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nRuMA34DFp%2BDGGEfejBt2xD9WAOtjhIv4DZVlvEVX3U%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > mailto:ippm@ietf.org > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nRuMA34DFp%2BDGGEfejBt2xD9WAOtjhIv4DZVlvEVX3U%3D&reserved=0 >
- [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.t… internet-drafts
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Alex Huang Feng
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… t petch
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Thomas.Graf
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Benoit Claise
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Thomas.Graf
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Justin Iurman
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Alex Huang Feng
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou