Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt
Alex Huang Feng <alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr> Wed, 29 March 2023 08:29 UTC
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From: Alex Huang Feng <alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr>
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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:36:36 +0200
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Cc: "Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com" <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>, "gregimirsky@gmail.com" <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>, Justin Iurman <justin.iurman@uliege.be>
To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt
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Hi Tianran, I totally agree with Justin. For me all IOAM types defined in the IANA registry “IOAM Option-Types” should be considered part of “IOAM”. Otherwise, the definition of this registry is not right. I know it’s a bit extreme, but that’s only my opinion. I noticed there are some bits allocated for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-integrity but I see this draft as an extension of the existing ones and therefore would not include them in this draft yet. As per the IOAM DEX YANG model part, I can also help. Cheers, Alex > On 29 Mar 2023, at 08:57, Justin Iurman <justin.iurman@uliege.be> wrote: > > Hi Tianran, > > Please see inline. > > On 3/29/23 00:44, Tianran Zhou wrote: >> Hi Thomas, >> Greg> Whether IOAM DEX is an integral part of IOAM? >> Thomas> Yes I believe it is. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9197#section-4.1 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9197#section-4.1> describes the initial option types where https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#abstract <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#abstract> adds an IOAM option type called direct export. >> ZTR> I understand what Greg concerned is from the definition. In RFC9197: >> " IOAM records OAM information within the packet while the packet traverses a particular network domain." >> This is different from the IOAM-DEX behavior. > > Justin> I tend to disagree here. Reading the definition again and again, it could very well work for DEX: "IOAM records OAM information within the packet" as a first part, which corresponds to the DEX encapsulating node, then "while the packet traverses a particular network domain" for the second part, where nothing happens (I mean, inside the packet, not talking about the triggering part). So, I guess it's a matter of how one reads the definition, which I agree might be misinterpreted for the DEX. Anyway, I don't see a difference between DEX and E2E for example. Indeed, in both cases, the encapsulating node inserts the IOAM Option-Type and then nothing on the path would add more data. AFAIK, E2E *is* an integral part of IOAM... and so is DEX. I understand the purpose of DEX is a little different but, from a pure definition point of view (and based on the IANA registry defining IOAM Option-Types), DEX *is* an integral part of IOAM. So, +1 to put DEX back into the yang model. > > Thanks, > Justin > >> -----邮件原件----- >> 发件人: Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com [mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com] >> 发送时间: 2023年3月27日 9:17 >> 收件人: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com; alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr; gregimirsky@gmail.com >> 抄送: ippm@ietf.org >> 主题: RE: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt >> Dear Tianran, Dear Greg >> Thanks a lot for the summary my apology for late reply. >> I have been reviewing Greg's comments and below my reply. >> Greg> The scope of the IOAM YANG data model - is limited to configuration or also includes the presentation of IOAM data types defined in RFC 9197? >> Thomas> I suggest to change the following sentence in the abstract from >> "This document defines a YANG module for the IOAM function." >> To >> "This document defines a YANG module for configuring IOAM functions." >> Greg> Whether IOAM DEX is an integral part of IOAM? >> Thomas> Yes I believe it is. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9197#section-4.1 describes the initial option types where https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#abstract adds an IOAM option type called direct export. >> Greg> Should the IOAM YANG data model enable the configuration of an IOAM node in IOAM-DEX trace mode? >> Thomas> Yes it should. Reviewing https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-04#section-3.4, and looking at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#section-3.2, I think the configuration options proposed matches what can be configured. However, looking at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#section-6, I believe this needs to be addressed in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang. >> Greg> Whether the control of only IOAM operational state (enable/disable) on a transit node creates a new DDoS attack vector against that node. Consequently, how can this risk be mitigated? >> Thomas> This has already been answered in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#section-6. I suggest that https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang#section-5draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang is expanded by describing how the following objective >> - Selective DEX (Section 3.1.1) is applied by IOAM encapsulating nodes in order to limit the potential impact of DEX attacks to a small fraction of the traffic. >> Described in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9326#section-6 can be addressed by configuring filter. Since data export is out of scope, I believe the following objectives >> - Rate limiting of exported traffic (Section 3.1.2) is applied by IOAM nodes in order to prevent overloading attacks and to significantly limit the scale of amplification attacks. >> - IOAM encapsulating nodes are required to avoid pushing the DEX Option-Type into IOAM exported packets (Section 3.1.2), thus preventing some of the amplification and export loop scenarios. >> Are out of scope for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang. Would you agree? >> Greg> Should the model support the presentation of the looped-back IOAM packet with the Loopback flag set? >> Thomas> You are referring to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9322. I think it should. Yes. >> Greg> Should the model support the use of (configuration and presentation of the test outcomes) the Active IOAM flag? >> Thomas> Not sure if I understand this question. If it means wherever draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang should cover operational metrics describing how many packets have been sent, this would indeed from a network operator point of view beneficial. >> Greg> Should the configuration of IOAM over IPv6 and/or NSH be part of this document? >> Thomas> Could you elaborate why configuration is different depending packet encapsulation being used. >> Best wishes >> Thomas >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 3:19 PM >> To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-VNC-HCS <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>; alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr >> Cc: ippm@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt >> Hi Thomas, >> Please see the discussions during the LC, between Greg and me. >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailarchive.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fmsg%2Fippm%2Fs91KTSsmbHMotegy9f-6zWUSUWw&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VYnv4VnFOg3zF665A7%2Fog6twTHHnQ5WLjIgJDxLC5JE%3D&reserved=0 >> At last, there are still several concerns as follows. The authors discussed, we can eliminate most of the questions by excluding IOAM-DEX in this draft. >> - The scope of the IOAM YANG data model - is limited to configuration >> or also includes the presentation of IOAM data types defined in RFC 9197? >> - Whether IOAM DEX is an integral part of IOAM? >> - Should the IOAM YANG data model enable the configuration of an IOAM >> node in IOAM-DEX trace mode? >> - Whether the control of only IOAM operational state (enable/disable) >> on a transit node creates a new DDoS attack vector against that node. >> Consequently, how can this risk be mitigated? >> - Should the model support the presentation of the looped-back IOAM >> packet with the Loopback flag set? >> - Should the model support the use of (configuration and presentation >> of the test outcomes) the Active IOAM flag? >> - Should the configuration of IOAM over IPv6 and/or NSH be part of >> this document? >> Cheers, >> Tianran >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com [mailto:Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 1:34 PM >> To: Tianran Zhou <mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com>; mailto:alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr >> Cc: mailto:ippm@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt >> Dear Tianran, >> I share Alex and Greg's concerns and would appreciate that you detail where IOAM-DEX does not follow the IOAM definition and where IOAM options adds complexity in YANG. I think this needs to be addresses within the working group. I gladly support the discussion. >> Best wishes >> Thomas >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ippm <mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou >> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2023 9:17 AM >> To: Alex Huang Feng <mailto:alex.huang-feng@insa-lyon.fr>; Tianran Zhou <mailto:zhoutianran=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> >> Cc: mailto:ippm@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt >> Hi Alex, >> There are several concerns from the WG wrt IOAM-DEX, including: >> 1. IOAM-DEX does not follow the IOAM definition. Maybe we need a new definition for both or exclude IOAM-DEX from this draft. >> 2. The IOAM-DEX configuration may be different from other IOAM options with more complexity. >> Follow the principle with max consensus, we decided to exclude IOAM-DEX from this draft. So that it aligns rfc9197. >> However, this yang model is still extensible. >> We can cooperate on a new draft if you have interest. >> Best, >> Tianran >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alex Huang Feng >> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:45 PM >> To: Tianran Zhou <mailto:zhoutianran=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> >> Cc: mailto:ippm@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt >> Hi Tianran, >> I think it is pity the IOAM-DEX was removed from the draft. I feel that since it is already a standard, it should be in the draft. >> Any reasons why it was removed? >> Cheers, >> Alex >>> On 16 Feb 2023, at 12:15, Tianran Zhou <mailto:zhoutianran=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi WG, >>> >>> We just upload a new revision. >>> The main updates include: >>> 1. Remove the IOAM-DEX and two IOAM flags to align with rfc 9197. >>> 2. Add max length constraint to both pre-allocated and incremental tracing. >>> 3. Add examples in the appendix. >>> >>> Your comments are welcome. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Tianran >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2023 7:12 PM >>> To: mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org >>> Cc: mailto:ippm@ietf.org >>> Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt >>> >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >>> This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. >>> >>> Title : A YANG Data Model for In-Situ OAM >>> Authors : Tianran Zhou >>> Jim Guichard >>> Frank Brockners >>> Srihari Raghavan >>> Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.txt >>> Pages : 28 >>> Date : 2023-02-16 >>> >>> Abstract: >>> In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records >>> operational and telemetry information in user packets while the >>> packets traverse a path between two points in the network. This >>> document defines a YANG module for the IOAM function. >>> >>> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang%2F&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1ceA%2FAd2SIza0QdMw9oYXBgz36%2BIroJE322LKUC%2FO8M%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> There is also an htmlized version available at: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7R3rriq85frIAQ6fRTlgAfzYZjw6hGNiWp3nAVxhExo%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fauthor-tools.ietf.org%2Fiddiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2Bt6pmx0st%2FqTmRViIasYVNvUSuBKlwBWYAUkD%2FifZ%2Bs%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ippm mailing list >>> mailto:ippm@ietf.org >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nRuMA34DFp%2BDGGEfejBt2xD9WAOtjhIv4DZVlvEVX3U%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ippm mailing list >>> mailto:ippm@ietf.org >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nRuMA34DFp%2BDGGEfejBt2xD9WAOtjhIv4DZVlvEVX3U%3D&reserved=0 >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> mailto:ippm@ietf.org >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nRuMA34DFp%2BDGGEfejBt2xD9WAOtjhIv4DZVlvEVX3U%3D&reserved=0 >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> mailto:ippm@ietf.org >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=05%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf10c733234bc42eec86c08db1953c342%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C638131619769712596%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nRuMA34DFp%2BDGGEfejBt2xD9WAOtjhIv4DZVlvEVX3U%3D&reserved=0 >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm>
- [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-05.t… internet-drafts
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Alex Huang Feng
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… t petch
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Thomas.Graf
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Benoit Claise
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Thomas.Graf
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Justin Iurman
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Alex Huang Feng
- Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang-… Tianran Zhou