[ippm] R: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-01.txt

[Fioccola Giuseppe <[e-mail]>]

Hi Al,
Thanks for your comments.
See my answers inline tagged as [GF]

Best Regards,

Giuseppe

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) [mailto:[e-mail]] 
Inviato: martedì 31 ottobre 2017 15:00
A: Fioccola Giuseppe; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Cc: '[e-mail]'
Oggetto: RE: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-01.txt

Hi Guiseppe,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Fioccola 
> Giuseppe
> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 7:29 AM
> To: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> Cc: '[e-mail]'
> Subject: [ippm] I: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-ippm- 
> multipoint-alt-mark-01.txt
> 
> Hi IPPM,
> 
> We have updated the draft to address the comment received in Prague 
> from Al Morton about considering RFC5644 relevant for this work.
> 
> The feeling is that the multipoint alternate marking considerations 
> extend the scope of RFC5644 to Passive/Hybrid Performance Measurements 
> and also to multi source stream. A new section "Correlation with 
> RFC5644" has been added. Some terminologies and definitions can be re- 
> used from RFC5644 (e.g. spatial, segment, multiparty, one-to-group 
> metrics and also group-to-group topologies), but they have to be 
> rephrased to be applied to the alternate marking schema.

[ACM]
Thanks for addressing my comment. It is certainly worthwhile to re-use what you can. It will be useful to recognize the overlap between one-to-group and group-to-group metrics, and that some group-to-group metrics consolidate many one-to-group observations, and those are built on one-to-one observations...

In section 3, you indicate the possibility of multi-paths appearing in the measurements, and then you raise an important point about specifying single IP addresses, that: 
 " ... a single source address selects flows following a point-to-
   multipoint, while a multipoint-to-point can be the result of a
   matching on a single destination address."

If specifying a single Source address, for example, the point-to-multipoint graph would almost certainly include multiple paths as well. The risk of combining measurements on the basis of Source IP-only, is that delay variations observed across multiple paths would be larger than those experienced by single flows. Common Flow classification keeps each flow on *one* route through the multi-path topology.

[GF] You are absolutely right, in fact multipoint alternate marking could be useful in a flexible performance measurement application (e.g. an SDN controller can do that), where you can monitor the entire network as a whole or on Clusters basis and in case of problems you can detail more, but only in the portion of the network where you need. The risks you mention are correct, but this is the trade-off between a per-flow performance monitoring that needs resources to be accomplished and a Cluster based performance monitoring that gives a summary of the network with few resources. This method gives the flexibility to perform both the big picture and detailed measurements. For this purpose, Hashing selection method (RFC5474/5) has been introduced to be coupled with alternate marking methodology in order to perform a better delay and delay variation analysis because marking batches anchor the samples selected with hashing and it works for multipoint-to-multipoint path. This is needed because Double Marking measurement cannot work in the Multipoint scenario, so Hashing method enables per-flow delay measurements also for multipoint paths.

"...alternate marking method is applicable only to a single path", so it appears you start with the flow-specific information, just be careful with the aggregations in the multipoint cases.

[GF] Yes, I meant "The alternate marking method, as presented until now, is applicable only to a single path... so the extension proposed in this document is suitable also for the most general case of multipoint-to-multipoint". I have to modify this sentence.

Measurements of Route variation/sensitivities are on (some of) our minds:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-amf-ippm-route-01
and this is a possible area of interaction where we all benefit:
from your Section 4.1:
   "The Monitoring Network is deduced from the Production Network, by
   identifying the nodes of the graph, that are the measurement points,
   and the links, that are the connections between measurement points."
Even if your org. owns the production network, you may still be surprised how packets flow through it when routing choices are made on IP and higher-layer info.

[GF] This is a good point! I can mention that draft-amf-ippm-route can help with the building of the monitoring network.

  "4.4.2.  Mean Delay and Jitter

   Mean delay and jitter measurements can also be generalized to the
   case of multipoint flows."
This is where my comments above on combining measurements across flows are relevant. Also, we prefer "Packet Delay Variation" over the term "Jitter" in IPPM, and RFC 3393 explains why.

[GF] Agree

hope this helps,
Al


> 
> 
> 
> Also, the description of how to use RFC5474 and RFC5475 coupled with 
> alternate marking has been detailed (section "Hashing selection 
> method"). It can be applied to both point-to-point (described in 
> draft-
> mizrahi-ippm-compact-alternate-marking) and to 
> multipoint-to-multipoint (described in this new version).
> 
> 
> 
> In addition, new considerations inspired from Last Call discussion on 
> the foundation draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark have been included also in 
> this new version.
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Giuseppe
> 
> 
> 
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> 
> Da: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> 
> Inviato: lunedì 30 ottobre 2017 11:31
> 
> A: Riccardo Sisto; Fioccola Giuseppe; Cociglio Mauro; Amedeo Sapio
> 
> Oggetto: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint- 
> alt-mark-01.txt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new version of I-D, draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-01.txt
> 
> has been successfully submitted by Giuseppe Fioccola and posted to the 
> IETF repository.
> 
> 
> 
> Name:		draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark
> 
> Revision:	01
> 
> Title:		Multipoint Alternate Marking method for passive and
> hybrid performance monitoring
> 
> Document date:	2017-10-30
> 
> Group:		Individual Submission
> 
> Pages:		15
> 
> URL:            https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> 3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2Dfioccola-2Dippm-2Dmultipoin
> t-
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> Htmlized:       https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dfioccola-2Dippm-2Dmultipoint
> -
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> Diff:           https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> 3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dfioccola-2Dippm-2Dmultipoint
> -
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> 
> 
> 
> Abstract:
> 
>    The Alternate Marking method, as presented in
> 
>    [I-D.ietf-ippm-alt-mark], can be applied only to point-to-point 
> flows
> 
>    because it assumes that all the packets of the flow measured on one
> 
>    node are measured again by a single second node.  This document 
> aims
> 
>    to generalize and expand this methodology to measure any kind of
> 
>    unicast flows, whose packets can follow several different paths in
> 
>    the network, in wider terms a multipoint-to-multipoint network.  
> For
> 
>    this reason the technique here described is called Multipoint
> 
>    Alternate Marking.  Some definitions here introduced extend the 
> scope
> 
>    of RFC 5644 [RFC5644] in the context of alternate marking schema.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of 
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> The IETF Secretariat
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