Re: [ippm] QUIC concerns relating to draft-ietf-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements

[Nilo Massimo <[e-mail]>]

Hi,
first of all thanks for the many comments received.
As jointly agreed at the time with the chairs of the IPPM, QUIC and TSWG WGs, this draft is general and its purpose is to describe only the measurement methodologies in a protocol independent way. In order to describe their application to a certain protocol, it was agreed to present a specific draft in the related WG.
So to give an example, with regard to the COAP protocol, this was done by submitting a draft in the CORE WG. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-coap-pm/
Therefore, with regard to the QUIC protocol, we will prepare a draft to be presented in the QUIC WG which will address the issues highlighted in this thread and details related to the possible future implementation.

As for this draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements , we will write a new version of it where the section 6 will be placed in a draft appendix and renamed to Experimental Examples.
In this way (we hope) it will be clear that we are talking about experiments made, and that they must not be interpreted as implementation.

If the other co-authors agree, we can proceed to make a new version of the draft.

Massimo (and the co-authors in CC)


From: Tommy Pauly [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Date: ven 12 mag 2023 14:02 UTC
Subject: Re: [ippm] QUIC concerns relating to draft-ietf-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements

Agreed, although I see a lot of this work as input to future versions of a protocol (QUIC or otherwise) that could allocate bits like QUICv1 did for the spin bit. The IPPM document essentially is a zoo of the various ways bits could be used for spin-bit style uses, such that future protocols and protocol versions could decide to implement one. In the meantime, I agree that the application to QUICv1 is more for experimental demonstrations than something you could have arbitrary middle boxes assume support for by default.

Tommy

> On May 11, 2023, at 4:50 PM, Christian Huitema <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>
> On 5/11/2023 3:53 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
>> On Fri, May 12, 2023, at 01:21, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>> Igor is right. In fact, the "square bit" that he describes is
>>> implemented in Picoquic, under an option negotiation.
>> It's not about whether endpoints could negotiate something that allows the use of these bits, it's about whether measurement systems are able to rely on that happening.
>> It's quite possible that some extension could be negotiated that creates a signal in these bits.  OK, so now you can deploy a measurement system that relies on that.  Most bits will be random, but some proportion will have the signal.  Enter statistical methods and you can recover some signal.
>> Well...almost.  This works until someone else decides to negotiate the use of those bits for carrying a different signal.  Now you have a harder statistical problem to solve.  Maybe you can boost your adaptation by observing connection initiation and looking for clients that advertise a certain version and set of transport parameters.
>>> The probability that these measurement features be turned on by default
>>> is extremely low, and the draft should be very explicit about it,
>>> including a description of the privacy/measurement tradeoff.
>> This is really the point of all this.
>
> That. Which means that at a minimum the IPPM draft should discuss the issue: needle of measurement in a haystack of noise. It might work sometimes, such as when debugging the end to end path between two well known IP addresses, or when knowing the specific connection IDs used by the system participating in the measurement. It might perhaps work if the connection last long enough to distinguish the IPPM pattern from a random pattern. But as you say, the general case is almost impossible.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>



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