Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function
Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> Thu, 05 September 2019 00:34 UTC
Return-Path: <fgont@si6networks.com>
X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB613120DC1; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:34:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28kGgL0YFwSb; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6031A120DB7; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CC0668562C; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 02:34:28 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion <draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
References: <HK0PR03MB3970C6DCC635E7CD802D65FDFCBD0@HK0PR03MB3970.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com> <BYAPR05MB54636A2332FED916A26A6F14AEBD0@BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <cb2f56f8-acdc-d68d-0878-9609cb3d7b1b@gont.com.ar> <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> <537C92D5-7355-45B5-8974-C74ED08B0E0F@employees.org>
From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Message-ID: <a7b5255b-8570-0e4b-da17-7557e7ca18c1@si6networks.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 03:34:09 +0300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <537C92D5-7355-45B5-8974-C74ED08B0E0F@employees.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/WgoE2tFa6mWGVLbbJZR0KRb5YxU>
X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" <ipv6.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>
List-Post: <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 00:34:41 -0000
On 4/9/19 09:58, Ole Troan wrote: > Fernando, > >>>> Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or >>>> leave the IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has >>>> had consensus that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be >>>> bad, wastefull, tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go >>>> through the whole publication process, and just rely on the AD to >>>> keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed. >>>> >>>> Put another way: what'd be the rationale for having a draft-ietf >>>> and have the corresponding wg ship the document with something that >>>> clearly goes against IETF consensus, and that the relevant AD has >>>> declared that wouldn't let pass? >>> >>> In short, this is not the case. I am *not* the relevant AD for the >>> SRv6 Network Programming draft. If this document was in 6man I would >>> have flagged it much earlier like I did for the SRH draft. >> >> Sorry, what I meant by "relevant AD" is: "one of the responsible ADs for >> the spec that's being violated". >> >> i.e., isn't there in the IETF process -- whether formal or informal -- >> for this sort of thing to be flagged before documents get too far in the >> publication process? ("Hey, this document in your area is actually >> breaking a spec of one of my wgs" sort of thing...) > > I would prefer that we calmed down a bit on the protocol policing. Sorry, but this has nothing to do with protocol policing. It has to do with respecting the consensus this wg and the ietf as a whole had on the topic. i.e., that EHs must not be inserted in the network. We'd go into an interesting path to insanity if we publish specs, and subsequently publish conflicting specs that simply ignore previous ietf consensus. If folks want to do EH insertion, the #1 step is to publish a document that updates RFC8200 such that the "EHs must not be inserted..." is replaced with something else or eliminated. > We know that header insertion breaks unsuspecting source hosts if done by the network. > It breaks (at least) PMTUD, ICMP errors and AH. > > What we have said in the past is; explain how those issues are dealt with or do not apply to your proposal. That's what you and others may have said or thought. But the consensus is what's in the standard (RFC8200). And the standard says that EHs cannot be inserted in the network. If you want to do it, the first step is to update RFC8200. > And some form of "doing on behalf of" is not necessarily problematic. It is rightaway problematic specs-wise when it violates a crystal-clear requirement in RFC8200, that we arrived to after a very heated debate, and lots of enegery and time from all the involved people. The fact that after all the long story behind publication of rfc8200 as standard (and the ongoing srv6 document we're doing here, which was adopted on the condition that it wouldn't do eh-insertion), we can live with other wgs violating specs that we produced here with so much effort and time, is kind of amusing. If folks want to allow EH-insertion (i.e., formally allowing middleboxes to fiddle with packets), RFC8200 should be updated, and the work should be done in 6man. I don't think it's SPRING's call how the IPv6 protocol works. > It's the "blind" "Thou shalt not do" that I object to. As opposed to arguing on technical grounds. > > Ensuring interoperability is our purpose. Not protect 8200 as if it's a religious text. My #1 concern (not that I don't have others) is one related to fairness of the standardization process. I don't think we should simply rubberstamp anything a big vendor wants to sell, no matter how big the vendor is, or how much money may be involved. And if this working group (and the IETF as a whole) published a spec on which there was consensus, ignoring the spec and doing whatever one pleases is not the way to go. Firstly, make e the case for updating RFC8200. Then come up with the proposal to fiddle with packets in the network. P.S.: I've never been into the camp of protecting X (whether rfc8200 or any other document) as if it was religious text. Quite ironically, I have experienced such religious opposition in 6man itself (for instance, your argument of "don't fix slaac-renumbering because ipv6 has not been designed to support flash renumbering" seems pretty much a religious argument against work that would not result in any major modifications to any of the protocols involved -- as opposed to EH insertion). -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
- Question about SRv6 Insert function li zhenqiang
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Ole Troan
- RE: Question about SRv6 Insert function Ron Bonica
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Mark Smith
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- Re: Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function li zhenqiang
- Re: RE: Question about SRv6 Insert function li zhenqiang
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Ca By
- RE: Question about SRv6 Insert function Ron Bonica
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Ole Troan
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Ole Troan
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Robert Raszuk
- RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert funct… li zhenqiang
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Robert Raszuk
- Re: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert funct… li zhenqiang
- Re: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert funct… Robert Raszuk
- Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Robert Raszuk
- RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Robert Raszuk
- RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Andrew Alston
- RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Ole Troan
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- Re: RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert funct… li zhenqiang
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Fernando Gont
- RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Robert Raszuk
- SRH scratch space (was Re: [spring] Question abou… Erik Kline
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Erik Kline
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Erik Kline
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Robert Raszuk
- RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [spring] SRH scratch space (was Re: Question … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Alexandre Petrescu