Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language
Phillip Hallam-Baker <ietf@hallambaker.com> Fri, 10 May 2019 13:31 UTC
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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <ietf@hallambaker.com>
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 09:31:44 -0400
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To: Erik Wilde <erik.wilde@dret.net>
Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Pete Cordell <petejson@codalogic.com>, Ulysse Carion <ulysse@segment.com>, JSON WG <json@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language
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On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 12:43 PM Erik Wilde <erik.wilde@dret.net> wrote: > On 2019-05-08 08:46, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > If I have to work on a W3C Schema(*), I convert it to Relax-NG compact > first. True, I’ll lose some information, but as a net result I'll digest > much more information out of the W3C Schema document than if I had directly > looked at that. > > At the time when I was closer to the XML community, the hallway > consensus was that W3C Schema was *designed* to sell more tools. > > that's one way to look at it. given the complexity of XSD's model (which > is a different discussion to have), it's hard to imagine how you could > easily work with it just using a generic underlying model (of any kind: > even the RNG compact syntax isn't easily revealing all relationships). > > it's probably fair to say that any sufficiently complex domain model > will require you to use tooling supporting it, instead of being able to > just work with a source file of any format. > > to me, the first discussion to have is how complex/powerful you want the > domain model to be (XSD went completely overboard there). *after* that > has been decided, and if it is of modest complexity, then it may make > sense to consider a syntax based on a generic model so that people can > directly read (and possibly even write) the source. > > for old times sake, at https://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/08/27/xscs.html is > a specific XSD syntax we worked on to have a good "source file UX" for > XSD. of course it never caught on because people used tools anyways, and > this approach required specific code for reading and writing XSCS. > XSD was designed to be a replacement for SGML DDLs. It is a document markup, not a data markup. Document markup cares about the order in which fields are entered. Data markup really doesn't. XML has many features that are bogus. The distinction between elements and attributes for example. But they were in SGML and XML couldn't drop them. The decision to use SGML in the Web was purely driven by deployment/adoption concerns. We all hated it. There were many technical issues, the tooling was awful, the specification was broken. The only reason HTML used SGML was to get the publishing industry onside. XML was an attempt to get rid of as much of the stupid from SGML as possible. XSD was a necessary part of enabling XML.
- [Json] JSON Schema Language Ulysse Carion
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Peter Patel-Schneider
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Erik Wilde
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Erik Wilde
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Ulysse Carion
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Erik Wilde
- [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Schema L… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Daniel P
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Ulysse Carion
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Austin Wright
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Rob Sayre
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Manger, James
- Re: [Json] Adding integers to JSON (Re: JSON Sche… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Rob Sayre
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Rob Sayre
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Rob Sayre
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Nico Williams
- [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON validatio… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] JSON Schema Language Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… Ulysse Carion
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] A minimal examplotron-style JSON valid… Nico Williams