Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switching from Gitter to something else
"AKASH KHOSLA" <akhosla@berkeley.edu> Wed, 06 February 2019 05:16 UTC
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From: AKASH KHOSLA <akhosla@berkeley.edu>
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To: Evan Schwartz <evan@ripple.com>
Cc: Brian Kerr <brian@kava.io>, David Fuelling <fuelling@ripple.com>, Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com>, Daniel Carroll <daniel.carroll@secureblockchains.com>, Yuriy Dybskiy <yuriy@dybskiy.com>, "ledger@ietf.org" <ledger@ietf.org>, "public-interledger@w3.org" <public-interledger@w3.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switching from Gitter to something else
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Thanks to Evan for getting this up! https://forum.interledger.org *Akash Khosla* Fourth Year EECS akhosla@berkeley.edu On Tue, Feb 5th, 2019 at 2:2 PM, AKASH KHOSLA <akhosla@berkeley.edu> wrote: > > This a public forum for participating in Interledger's research efforts, > including but not limited to: > * Scaling > * Load balancing > * Connector topology > * Routing > * Decentralized Exchange > * Market Making > * Fee Markets > * Economics > * Privacy techniques > * Custody > * ILP improvements (pre-RFC) > > > > This is *not* the place for: > > > > * Generic crypto and Interledger discussion (use Slack) > * Discussing specific PRs and in progress RFCs (use GitHub) > > > > > Technical questions are ok as long as they are relevant and are > non-repeats. > > > Just don't want to have randos asking about when the next ILP plug-in is > going to be released on here or "when wallet". > > > > > > > *Akash Khosla* > Fourth Year EECS > akhosla@berkeley.edu > > > > > On Tue, Feb 5th, 2019 at 9:13 AM, Evan Schwartz < evan@ripple.com > wrote: > > > >> I signed up for a trial Discourse account and submitted the request to >> have them host it for free because it's for an open source project. I'm >> waiting to hear back on that and working on getting the DNS set up to >> point forum.interledger.org ( http://forum.interledger.org ) to it (let me >> know if anyone feels strongly that the domain should be something else). >> If they don't approve the free hosting request, we can switch it over to a >> self-hosted version (and migrate the data). >> >> > Should we use bridging software? >> >> If anyone wants to use it, they would be more than welcome to set it up >> >> > Does it make sense for Discourse to have very clearly defined rules for >> discussions for enforcing high signal to noise ratio (like on https://ethresear.ch/ >> )? >> >> Possibly; what kind of rules would you envision? (Right now, though, I'm >> not too worried about having too much discussion. If that becomes a >> problem, I think we can cross that bridge when we get there) >> >> >> On Feb 5 2019, at 4:40 am, AKASH KHOSLA < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote: >> >>> >>> Based on the comments received and talking to people offline I think >>> what's best going forward is to create a self-hosted Discourse as an >>> asynchronous forum to replace email, and have the synchronous chat that >>> replaces Gitter be Discord/Slack. No rocket.chat or niche platforms to >>> avoid developer overhead. >>> >>> >>> The only questions are now: >>> -What subdomain should the Discourse be at? forum.interledger.org? or >>> disc.interledger.org or research.interledger.org? >>> -Does it make sense for Discourse to have very clearly defined rules for >>> discussions for enforcing high signal to noise ratio (like on https://ethresear.ch/ >>> )? I'm leaning more towards this, and I think that's the most effective >>> way to use the platform while ensuring the Interledger community steers >>> toward productive discussions. Early on, we can be lenient about this and >>> enforce as needed. >>> -Should we use bridging software? ( https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge >>> ) Note that this is not ideal, because moderation is fragmented, and the >>> interoperability aspect basically relies on a bot receiving messages from >>> another client and pushing it to a chat log. You can see the demos on >>> matterbridge to see what I mean. >>> -Assuming money not an issue, it looks like Slack is the preferred way to >>> do things vs. Discord. Only downside is that Slack's interface for joining >>> chats is not great (requires an auto-invite tool to be hosted), but I >>> think that's ok, I've generally had better community experiences through >>> Slack despite that. >>> >>> >>> As long as we have a Discourse that stays with us forever with most of the >>> valuable information, we can always move our synchronous chat if it ever >>> becomes a problem. >>> >>> >>> *Akash Khosla* >>> Fourth Year EECS >>> akhosla@berkeley.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 4th, 2019 at 5:2 PM, Evan Schwartz < evan@ripple.com > wrote: >>> >>>> I like the idea of categorizing the options into synchronous and >>>> asynchronous communication methods, as proposed in that Rust thread. >>>> >>>> Sync >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> Current: Gitter >>>> >>>> * >>>> Use case: support and, to a lesser extent, design discussion >>>> >>>> * >>>> Main problems: low response rate because a) there aren't enough >>>> contributors who are dedicating time to field issues (myself included) and >>>> b) few people have Gitter open all the time so checking for new messages >>>> is an extra step >>>> >>>> * >>>> My take: Slack isn't great for open source projects but it is the one that >>>> most Interledger contributors have sitting open while they're working, so >>>> if we're optimizing for making sure people get help that might be the best >>>> one >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Async >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> Current: Github Issues, Mailing List >>>> >>>> * >>>> Use case: design discussion, brainstorming >>>> >>>> * >>>> Main problems: Github issue threads get very long and unwieldy, sending >>>> emails to the mailing list seems too weighty because it spams everyone's >>>> inbox >>>> >>>> * >>>> My take: Discourse might be worth trying out, based on the experience of >>>> the Rust and Ethereum Research communities, but I'm not sure how different >>>> the participation would be on that type of forum versus on Github issues >>>> and PRs. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> PS Thanks Akash for taking the initiative to kick off this discussion! >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 4 2019, at 11:49 am, Brian Kerr < brian@kava.io > wrote: >>>> >>>>> If we want to expand the community, I definitely would recommend switching >>>>> to something that isn't forcing people to learn a new app. Adding the >>>>> hurdle of that will hurt on-boarding and engagement. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'd recommend slack or discord because most people already have the apps >>>>> and are familiar with how to use them. >>>>> >>>>> Brian Kerr >>>>> Co-founder >>>>> Kava.io >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 04, 2019 at 9:30 AM, David Fuelling < fuelling@ripple.com > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> +1 for Slack. As a 2nd choice I would support >>>>>> https://www.discourse.org (0x forum and chat use that and it seems nice). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Agree we need to move off of Gitter. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 3:49 AM Akash Khosla < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Gotcha, in that case I'll move the Hyperledger side to bcc to avoid >>>>>>> confusion - this is focused on the Interledger working group which >>>>>>> regularly uses Gitter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 2:30 AM Silona Bonewald < sbonewald@linuxfoundation.org >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Silona the VP of community architecture for Hyperledger here >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm afraid this is something we cannot change easily. All of the projects >>>>>>>> at Hyperledger need to be on the same chat system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Http://Chat.hyperledger.org ( http://Http://Chat.hyperledger.org ) which is >>>>>>>> rocket chat. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please follow Ry"s directions earlier about creating an LF ID. A Linux >>>>>>>> foundation ID. Hyperledger also is a project under the Linux foundation >>>>>>>> and we also adhere to some of those standards as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As a community and especially quilt bring an interopability tool has to >>>>>>>> work within the larger community of Hyperledger. We have a unified >>>>>>>> standard. You can read up on the Hyperledger project process more on the wiki.hyperledger.org >>>>>>>> ( http://wiki.hyperledger.org ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>>>> Silona >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019, 23:25 Daniel Carroll < daniel.carroll@secureblockchains.com >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It would likely be good to have a couple of different platforms. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I like Discord and Telegram for community chat and general sharing of >>>>>>>>> information. But both are limited in how you can breakdown information >>>>>>>>> into categories and maintain a logical history. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I like Slack and Trello for grouping chunks of data within a team >>>>>>>>> attempting productivity. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dan >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Feb 3, 2019, at 9:47 PM, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com > >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I assume when looking at the community at large we want a solution that is >>>>>>>>>> seccure in nature and also has the feature set to grow as the community >>>>>>>>>> grows, although cost could be an issue later.. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You may want to check - https://flock.com/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers! >>>>>>>>>> Bhaves >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 4 Feb 2019, at 10:36 AM, Yuriy Dybskiy < yuriy@dybskiy.com > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Akash, really great proposal! >>>>>>>>>>> I've been using Discord more and more lately so I'm definitely +1 on that >>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>> Rocket.chat ( http://rocket.chat/ ) is built with Meteor and I used to be a >>>>>>>>>>> huge fan of it so I'm +1 on that option as well :) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Discord might be the easiest to setup and more polished so slight >>>>>>>>>>> preference there, but long term maybe Rocket.chat ( http://rocket.chat/ ) is >>>>>>>>>>> a better option. >>>>>>>>>>> Curious what others think. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 7:02 PM AKASH KHOSLA < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if there would be any interest in moving from Gitter to >>>>>>>>>>>> another platform. The main reason I bring this up is because Gitter could >>>>>>>>>>>> be out of the way for a lot of us and the application doesn't encourage >>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated usage. Email lists are a bit old school and signing up for the >>>>>>>>>>>> Interledger one is out of the way. I think the reason for such a cryptic >>>>>>>>>>>> interface for the w3c style/linux foundation emails list is sybil >>>>>>>>>>>> resistance and anti-spam since there are liberal write permissions to the >>>>>>>>>>>> lists. I think scaling the community requires something better than email >>>>>>>>>>>> and Gitter. Would be great to hear thoughts on this. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Couple problems with Gitter: >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Clunky interface >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Poor separation of conversations/rooms >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Bad search function >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Bad mobile app >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some alternatives I think users enjoy using, and are well known in dev >>>>>>>>>>>> communities: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Rocket.chat ( https://rocket.chat/ )* >>>>>>>>>>>> Pros: >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Open source chat (basically a friendly IRC replacement) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Self hosting is free, cloud options available, easy to deploy with scripts >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Slack-like interface >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Good search functionality >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Threads ( >>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat/pull/11803#issuecomment-455963816 >>>>>>>>>>>> ) are being implemented >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Usable mobile applications >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Actively maintained + marketplace integrations >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Can deploy at chat.interledger.org ( http://chat.interledger.org ) (would >>>>>>>>>>>> be happy to help). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Easy sign in with GitHub, just like gitter. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cons: >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Not as well known as discord, slack or gitter from what I can tell, but I >>>>>>>>>>>> expect it to continue to grow in usage down the line and gain even more >>>>>>>>>>>> support than it already has. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Discord* >>>>>>>>>>>> Pros: >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Commonly used >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Free to use unlike sack >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Fast and friendly >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Solid mobile apps >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Actively maintained >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> No self hosting or maintenance >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Supports integrations >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cons: >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> May not be free forever >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Chat logs are owned by Discord >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> More complex interface than Slack/Rocket (some colleagues and I describe >>>>>>>>>>>> it as heavier >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This list may not be complete in terms of pros and cons so please chime in >>>>>>>>>>>> if you have a personal preference or have something to say about these >>>>>>>>>>>> platforms or others. I've spent some time with both alternatives, you can >>>>>>>>>>>> generally find demos on their corresponding websites to see what you like >>>>>>>>>>>> best. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Akash Khosla* >>>>>>>>>>>> Fourth Year EECS >>>>>>>>>>>> akhosla@berkeley.edu >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Yuriy @html5cat ( http://twitter.com/html5cat ) Dybskiy >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: yuriy@dybskiy.com >>>>>>>>>>> phone: +1 (650) 434-2004 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dybskiy.com ( http://dybskiy.com ) / Twitter ( http://twitter.com/html5cat >>>>>>>>>>> ) / GitHub ( http://github.com/html5cat ) / Linkedin ( >>>>>>>>>>> http://ca.linkedin..com/in/dybskiy ) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _._,_._,_ >>>>>>>>> Links: >>>>>>>>> You receive all messages sent to this group. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> View/Reply Online (#85) ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/message/85 >>>>>>>>> ) | Reply To Sender ( >>>>>>>>> ?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5BHyperledger%20Quilt%5D%20Proposal%3A%20Switching%20from%20Gitter%20to%20something%20else >>>>>>>>> ) | Reply To Group ( >>>>>>>>> quilt@lists.hyperledger.org?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5BHyperledger%20Quilt%5D%20Proposal%3A%20Switching%20from%20Gitter%20to%20something%20else >>>>>>>>> ) | Mute This Topic ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/mt/29637867/1540173 ) | >>>>>>>>> New Topic ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/post ) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your Subscription ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/editsub/1540173 ) >>>>>>>>> | Contact Group Owner ( quilt+owner@lists.hyperledger.org ) | Unsubscribe ( >>>>>>>>> https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/unsub ) [ sbonewald@linuxfoundation.org >>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _._,_._,_ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > >
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… David Fuelling
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… Evan Schwartz
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… AKASH KHOSLA
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… Evan Schwartz
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… AKASH KHOSLA
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… AKASH KHOSLA