Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switching from Gitter to something else
"AKASH KHOSLA" <akhosla@berkeley.edu> Tue, 05 February 2019 22:02 UTC
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From: AKASH KHOSLA <akhosla@berkeley.edu>
To: Evan Schwartz <evan@ripple.com>
Cc: Brian Kerr <brian@kava.io>, David Fuelling <fuelling@ripple.com>, Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com>, Daniel Carroll <daniel.carroll@secureblockchains.com>, Yuriy Dybskiy <yuriy@dybskiy.com>, "ledger@ietf.org" <ledger@ietf.org>, "public-interledger@w3.org" <public-interledger@w3.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switching from Gitter to something else
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This a public forum for participating in Interledger's research efforts, including but not limited to: * Scaling * Load balancing * Connector topology * Routing * Decentralized Exchange * Market Making * Fee Markets * Economics * Privacy techniques * Custody * ILP improvements (pre-RFC) This is *not* the place for: * Generic crypto and Interledger discussion (use Slack) * Discussing specific PRs and in progress RFCs (use GitHub) Technical questions are ok as long as they are relevant and are non-repeats. Just don't want to have randos asking about when the next ILP plug-in is going to be released on here or "when wallet". *Akash Khosla* Fourth Year EECS akhosla@berkeley.edu On Tue, Feb 5th, 2019 at 9:13 AM, Evan Schwartz <evan@ripple.com> wrote: > > I signed up for a trial Discourse account and submitted the request to > have them host it for free because it's for an open source project. I'm > waiting to hear back on that and working on getting the DNS set up to > point forum.interledger.org ( http://forum.interledger.org ) to it (let me > know if anyone feels strongly that the domain should be something else). > If they don't approve the free hosting request, we can switch it over to a > self-hosted version (and migrate the data). > > > Should we use bridging software? > > If anyone wants to use it, they would be more than welcome to set it up > > > Does it make sense for Discourse to have very clearly defined rules for > discussions for enforcing high signal to noise ratio (like on https://ethresear.ch/ > )? > > Possibly; what kind of rules would you envision? (Right now, though, I'm > not too worried about having too much discussion. If that becomes a > problem, I think we can cross that bridge when we get there) > > > On Feb 5 2019, at 4:40 am, AKASH KHOSLA < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote: > >> >> Based on the comments received and talking to people offline I think >> what's best going forward is to create a self-hosted Discourse as an >> asynchronous forum to replace email, and have the synchronous chat that >> replaces Gitter be Discord/Slack. No rocket.chat or niche platforms to >> avoid developer overhead. >> >> >> The only questions are now: >> -What subdomain should the Discourse be at? forum.interledger.org? or >> disc.interledger.org or research.interledger.org? >> -Does it make sense for Discourse to have very clearly defined rules for >> discussions for enforcing high signal to noise ratio (like on https://ethresear.ch/ >> )? I'm leaning more towards this, and I think that's the most effective >> way to use the platform while ensuring the Interledger community steers >> toward productive discussions. Early on, we can be lenient about this and >> enforce as needed. >> -Should we use bridging software? ( https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge >> ) Note that this is not ideal, because moderation is fragmented, and the >> interoperability aspect basically relies on a bot receiving messages from >> another client and pushing it to a chat log. You can see the demos on >> matterbridge to see what I mean. >> -Assuming money not an issue, it looks like Slack is the preferred way to >> do things vs. Discord. Only downside is that Slack's interface for joining >> chats is not great (requires an auto-invite tool to be hosted), but I >> think that's ok, I've generally had better community experiences through >> Slack despite that. >> >> >> As long as we have a Discourse that stays with us forever with most of the >> valuable information, we can always move our synchronous chat if it ever >> becomes a problem. >> >> >> *Akash Khosla* >> Fourth Year EECS >> akhosla@berkeley.edu >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 4th, 2019 at 5:2 PM, Evan Schwartz < evan@ripple.com > wrote: >> >>> I like the idea of categorizing the options into synchronous and >>> asynchronous communication methods, as proposed in that Rust thread. >>> >>> Sync >>> >>> >>> * >>> Current: Gitter >>> >>> * >>> Use case: support and, to a lesser extent, design discussion >>> >>> * >>> Main problems: low response rate because a) there aren't enough >>> contributors who are dedicating time to field issues (myself included) and >>> b) few people have Gitter open all the time so checking for new messages >>> is an extra step >>> >>> * >>> My take: Slack isn't great for open source projects but it is the one that >>> most Interledger contributors have sitting open while they're working, so >>> if we're optimizing for making sure people get help that might be the best >>> one >>> >>> >>> >>> Async >>> >>> >>> * >>> Current: Github Issues, Mailing List >>> >>> * >>> Use case: design discussion, brainstorming >>> >>> * >>> Main problems: Github issue threads get very long and unwieldy, sending >>> emails to the mailing list seems too weighty because it spams everyone's >>> inbox >>> >>> * >>> My take: Discourse might be worth trying out, based on the experience of >>> the Rust and Ethereum Research communities, but I'm not sure how different >>> the participation would be on that type of forum versus on Github issues >>> and PRs. >>> >>> >>> >>> PS Thanks Akash for taking the initiative to kick off this discussion! >>> >>> >>> On Feb 4 2019, at 11:49 am, Brian Kerr < brian@kava.io > wrote: >>> >>>> If we want to expand the community, I definitely would recommend switching >>>> to something that isn't forcing people to learn a new app. Adding the >>>> hurdle of that will hurt on-boarding and engagement. >>>> >>>> >>>> I'd recommend slack or discord because most people already have the apps >>>> and are familiar with how to use them. >>>> >>>> Brian Kerr >>>> Co-founder >>>> Kava.io >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 04, 2019 at 9:30 AM, David Fuelling < fuelling@ripple.com > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> +1 for Slack. As a 2nd choice I would support >>>>> https://www.discourse.org (0x forum and chat use that and it seems nice). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Agree we need to move off of Gitter. >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 3:49 AM Akash Khosla < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Gotcha, in that case I'll move the Hyperledger side to bcc to avoid >>>>>> confusion - this is focused on the Interledger working group which >>>>>> regularly uses Gitter. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 2:30 AM Silona Bonewald < sbonewald@linuxfoundation.org >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Silona the VP of community architecture for Hyperledger here >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm afraid this is something we cannot change easily. All of the projects >>>>>>> at Hyperledger need to be on the same chat system. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Http://Chat.hyperledger.org ( http://Http://Chat.hyperledger.org ) which is >>>>>>> rocket chat. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please follow Ry"s directions earlier about creating an LF ID. A Linux >>>>>>> foundation ID. Hyperledger also is a project under the Linux foundation >>>>>>> and we also adhere to some of those standards as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a community and especially quilt bring an interopability tool has to >>>>>>> work within the larger community of Hyperledger. We have a unified >>>>>>> standard. You can read up on the Hyperledger project process more on the wiki.hyperledger.org >>>>>>> ( http://wiki.hyperledger.org ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>>> Silona >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019, 23:25 Daniel Carroll < daniel.carroll@secureblockchains.com >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It would likely be good to have a couple of different platforms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I like Discord and Telegram for community chat and general sharing of >>>>>>>> information. But both are limited in how you can breakdown information >>>>>>>> into categories and maintain a logical history. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I like Slack and Trello for grouping chunks of data within a team >>>>>>>> attempting productivity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Feb 3, 2019, at 9:47 PM, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com > >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I assume when looking at the community at large we want a solution that is >>>>>>>>> seccure in nature and also has the feature set to grow as the community >>>>>>>>> grows, although cost could be an issue later.. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You may want to check - https://flock.com/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers! >>>>>>>>> Bhaves >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4 Feb 2019, at 10:36 AM, Yuriy Dybskiy < yuriy@dybskiy.com > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Akash, really great proposal! >>>>>>>>>> I've been using Discord more and more lately so I'm definitely +1 on that >>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>> Rocket.chat ( http://rocket.chat/ ) is built with Meteor and I used to be a >>>>>>>>>> huge fan of it so I'm +1 on that option as well :) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Discord might be the easiest to setup and more polished so slight >>>>>>>>>> preference there, but long term maybe Rocket.chat ( http://rocket.chat/ ) is >>>>>>>>>> a better option. >>>>>>>>>> Curious what others think. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 7:02 PM AKASH KHOSLA < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if there would be any interest in moving from Gitter to >>>>>>>>>>> another platform. The main reason I bring this up is because Gitter could >>>>>>>>>>> be out of the way for a lot of us and the application doesn't encourage >>>>>>>>>>> dedicated usage. Email lists are a bit old school and signing up for the >>>>>>>>>>> Interledger one is out of the way. I think the reason for such a cryptic >>>>>>>>>>> interface for the w3c style/linux foundation emails list is sybil >>>>>>>>>>> resistance and anti-spam since there are liberal write permissions to the >>>>>>>>>>> lists. I think scaling the community requires something better than email >>>>>>>>>>> and Gitter. Would be great to hear thoughts on this. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Couple problems with Gitter: >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Clunky interface >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Poor separation of conversations/rooms >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Bad search function >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Bad mobile app >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Some alternatives I think users enjoy using, and are well known in dev >>>>>>>>>>> communities: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Rocket.chat ( https://rocket.chat/ )* >>>>>>>>>>> Pros: >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Open source chat (basically a friendly IRC replacement) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Self hosting is free, cloud options available, easy to deploy with scripts >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Slack-like interface >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Good search functionality >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Threads ( >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat/pull/11803#issuecomment-455963816 >>>>>>>>>>> ) are being implemented >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Usable mobile applications >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Actively maintained + marketplace integrations >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Can deploy at chat.interledger.org ( http://chat.interledger.org ) (would >>>>>>>>>>> be happy to help). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Easy sign in with GitHub, just like gitter. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cons: >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Not as well known as discord, slack or gitter from what I can tell, but I >>>>>>>>>>> expect it to continue to grow in usage down the line and gain even more >>>>>>>>>>> support than it already has. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Discord* >>>>>>>>>>> Pros: >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Commonly used >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Free to use unlike sack >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Fast and friendly >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Solid mobile apps >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Actively maintained >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> No self hosting or maintenance >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Supports integrations >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cons: >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> May not be free forever >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Chat logs are owned by Discord >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> More complex interface than Slack/Rocket (some colleagues and I describe >>>>>>>>>>> it as heavier >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This list may not be complete in terms of pros and cons so please chime in >>>>>>>>>>> if you have a personal preference or have something to say about these >>>>>>>>>>> platforms or others. I've spent some time with both alternatives, you can >>>>>>>>>>> generally find demos on their corresponding websites to see what you like >>>>>>>>>>> best. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Akash Khosla* >>>>>>>>>>> Fourth Year EECS >>>>>>>>>>> akhosla@berkeley.edu >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>> Yuriy @html5cat ( http://twitter.com/html5cat ) Dybskiy >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail: yuriy@dybskiy.com >>>>>>>>>> phone: +1 (650) 434-2004 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dybskiy.com ( http://dybskiy.com ) / Twitter ( http://twitter.com/html5cat >>>>>>>>>> ) / GitHub ( http://github.com/html5cat ) / Linkedin ( >>>>>>>>>> http://ca.linkedin..com/in/dybskiy ) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _._,_._,_ >>>>>>>> Links: >>>>>>>> You receive all messages sent to this group. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> View/Reply Online (#85) ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/message/85 >>>>>>>> ) | Reply To Sender ( >>>>>>>> ?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5BHyperledger%20Quilt%5D%20Proposal%3A%20Switching%20from%20Gitter%20to%20something%20else >>>>>>>> ) | Reply To Group ( >>>>>>>> quilt@lists.hyperledger.org?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5BHyperledger%20Quilt%5D%20Proposal%3A%20Switching%20from%20Gitter%20to%20something%20else >>>>>>>> ) | Mute This Topic ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/mt/29637867/1540173 ) | >>>>>>>> New Topic ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/post ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your Subscription ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/editsub/1540173 ) >>>>>>>> | Contact Group Owner ( quilt+owner@lists.hyperledger.org ) | Unsubscribe ( >>>>>>>> https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/unsub ) [ sbonewald@linuxfoundation.org >>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _._,_._,_ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… David Fuelling
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… Evan Schwartz
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… AKASH KHOSLA
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… Evan Schwartz
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… AKASH KHOSLA
- Re: [Ledger] [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switch… AKASH KHOSLA