Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, important dates.
Damien Saucez <damien.saucez@gmail.com> Fri, 06 July 2012 10:35 UTC
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From: Damien Saucez <damien.saucez@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 12:35:16 +0200
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References: <CC0A0295.26FA1%terry.manderson@icann.org> <20120625155835.GA19669@vaf-mac1.cisco.com> <90A7C124-89E6-4755-8462-1D9B02FDDA35@gmail.com> <4FEEDCC9.9040606@raszuk.net>
To: robert@raszuk.net
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Cc: Joel Halpern <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>, LISP mailing list list <lisp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, important dates.
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Hello Robert, sorry for the delay. many thanks for the comments, nice to emulate the discussion. comments inline On 30 Jun 2012, at 13:02, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi Damien, > >> new usage of LISP that would enable stub network to >> select the ISP's outgoing link they use for every packet? > > Is selecting different outgoing link to different ISP for _every_packet_ is really a good idea ? > > Yes in the paper you actually correct yourself by saying: > > "Nevertheless, the different packets of a stream will > go through the same ASBR thanks to a hash algorithm > described in the LISP specification." > of course, as the path might be very different, it is better to have one flow = one path > Few comments on the paper: > -------------------------- > >> However this >> diversity cannot be fully exploited due to BGP limitations, which >> only keeps one single route for each available prefix. > > That is completely incorrect. BGP keeps (and may use locally) as many paths as it receives from it's iBGP and eBGP peers. well, with vanilla BGP, at one given router you have only one exit per prefix. Of course this exit can be different at different routers and intradomain multipath can be used to reach this exit. In the paper, we consider vanilla BGP, of course multipath BGP allows several exits per prefix, and you can use add path to iBGPed announce multiple routes internally > >> With this scheme, an ISP >> may propose its rich path diversity (at least partially) to its >> customers, in order to perform advanced traffic engineering (e.g. >> fast recovery, load balancing...) based on richer and more flexible >> path selection policies (e.g., considering price, performance or >> stability of routes). > > Please note that there are commercial deployed products doing just that for the last 10 years or so already. > sure, but as far as I know, they are black boxes and there is no standard method for them. is there? >> Multipath BGP extension [12], [13] >> slightly changes the BGP decision process in order to use >> simultaneously multiple routes. However, the routes must be >> similar (i.e., same Local-Preference, AS path length and MED) >> and traffic is balanced equally on these paths. > > Not true. There are number of knobs in shipping BGP implementations which relax those checks. sure, but again I think there is not standard specifications for that yet and I am not sure that, when we look how it moves, BGP will have this feature within the next 5-10 years. But maybe I am wrong, I am not following the related WGs that much. > Also multipath considers link-bw which results in non equal traffic spread. > you are right that the phrasing was not ideal. It is obviously possible to have no equal traffic spread when combined with TE, but it is not BGP itself that allow this. >> A. Description of the architecture >> Our architecture offers the stub the flexible capability of >> controlling the network exit point for its own traffic. > > Stub AS usually by it's definition has only a single exit .. or multiple exit points to the same upstream ;). Ok, we don't have the same stub AS definition. Is there any official definition? In our case, we consider that an AS is a stub if it is not a transit. According to this definition, it can thus be multi-homed (multiple upstreams) and multi-connected (multiple exit points to the same upstream). > > The tunneling to deflection point in the upstream can be done, but it guarantees nothing. Till you have at least a minimal assurance what is the view of the world of the peers of the upstream any decision you make from stub AS point of view will be quite blind. Sorry, I am not sure I understand this sentence. With the tunnels, we can select the exit point exactly, however, of course, the selection of this exit point is based on partial information. > >> At the control-plane level, our architecture relies on a centralized >> and extended mapping system named the Local Mapping >> Distributor (LMD). In addition to storing and distributing >> mappings, the LMD firstly generates them from the diverse >> Internet routes, filters them and ranks them. > > LMD is just a little bit enhanced RR. (see below) Yes, it could be a RR++, we just used a specific term to make the understanding easier but technically, it can be an extended version of an RR implementation. > >> One possible solution is that an ASBR carries >> several IP addresses, one for each neighboring domain it is >> connected to. The next-hop field in every received eBGP >> update is replaced by the IP address of the local ASBR which >> is associated with the neighbor the update is coming from. All >> packets sent towards this address must then be routed towards >> the appropriate neighbor. > > So you are saying the ASBR would advertise into IGP > 5.5.5.0/24 while internally each of his EBGP peers would get 5.5.5.1 .. 5.5.5.254 correct ? > > The issue with this is that if the peer 5.5.5.X goes down no one in the domain will ever know about it till BGP withdraws the prefixes coming from 5.5.5.X - no chance of fast connectivity restoration/PIC. > actually, we thought about internally announce at least all the addresses independently (one /32 per "exit link"). To that, we can add one /x per ASBR that covers all the /32 of the ASBR. Basically, one /32 per logical link to the outside + one /x per ASBR. Ot top of that, we must allow LISP to decapsulate even if the RLOC in the DB is not reachable. In such a way, there is not packet loss and normally PIC would work (but I am not expert in PIC so maybe there is some corner case I haven't seen). >> A specific protocol for >> inter-LMD communication must be designed in this case. It >> will not be discussed herein due to space constraints. > > Assuming that LMDs are just a bit extended RRs normal EBGP with add-paths could be used. I see no need for new protocol. I thought add path was limited to iBGP. If we can use add-path in eBGP and if we can use any selection mode we want, then yes it would make it. > > Please see the draft where similar concept is described for the intra-domian optimal path selection. It could be very easy to extend it to advertise "optimal" paths to stub ASes (either their ASBRs or their RRs/LMDs). > > Ref: http://goo.gl/Gc5LD interesting. It is indeed very close, small extension could make it a possible implementation. I like "4. Angular distance approximation for BGP warm potato routing". Would the angular position easy to construct in "strange" topologies? >> The proposal is based on the LISP Map-and-Encap >> mechanisms in order to overcome current BGP limitations. > > Please note that there is work in progress to define new BGP attribute which allows to carry remote next hop. That seems completely sufficient to not only realize your set of goals, but also to allow encapsulation much further then to the directly connected upstream's deflection point without shifting entire Internet to a new control/data plane paradigm. > I was not aware of this, could you give me pointers? Is there a solution to keep AS Path correct with AS sets if this is extended to hop i announcing to hop i+2 or i+3? Here we limit to stubs and announcements between i and i+1. Thank you for the inputs. Damien Saucez > Best regards, > R. >
- [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, important d… Terry Manderson
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Vince Fuller
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Terry Manderson
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Damien Saucez
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Terry Manderson
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Damien Saucez
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Terry Manderson
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Damien Saucez
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Damien Saucez
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Damien Saucez
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Damien Saucez
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [lisp] Thinking forward to Vancouver, importa… Damien Saucez