Re: [Lsr] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-liu-lsr-p2poverlan-00.txt

["Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <[e-mail]>]

I am in complete agreement with the points Tom has made.

AFAICT, the only new content in this draft is Section 4 - the rest is either boilerplate or a repetition of text already present in RFC 5309 or RFC 8343.
Neither the Abstract nor the Introduction makes that clear.
The abstract actually claims to 

    "defines point-to-point interface type" 

which is both FALSE (already defined in RFC 5309) and incorrectly named - since the document is actually discussing "point-to-point operation over LAN".

Regarding the IANA section, it is clear that the draft is NOT creating new entries - rather it is modifying existing entries. And it isn’t modifying the code points, the names, or the descriptions - it only seeks to modify the references to include "this document".
But the text in the IANA section states otherwise:

" IANA need to update the "Interface Types(ifType)" registry...with the following status types"

I don’t know whether the content in Section 4 is sufficient to claim a reference, but if it is it should only be in addition to the existing reference.

   Les

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lsr <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 7:13 AM
> To: tom petch <[e-mail]>; Harold Liu
> <harold.liu=[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-liu-lsr-p2poverlan-00.txt
> 
> Tom, 5309 did not define the ifType.  Go read 5309.  You seem to have
> gotten confused by the fact that the IANA entry given to 303 points to
> 5309.  That was done to have some reference (with the consent of the
> experts).   What we are doing now is providing a better reference.  So
> yes, this document defines how the ifType is defined.  With no criticism
> of 5309, it does not define that, since it does not define the ifType.
> 
> We are explicit in this draft that one of the obvious uses for this
> ifType is to trigger 5309 behavior.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 6/21/2021 4:41 AM, tom petch wrote:
> > From: Lsr <[e-mail]> on behalf of Harold Liu
> <harold.liu=[e-mail]>
> > Sent: 21 June 2021 02:01
> >
> > Hi Med and All:
> >         Thanks for your helpful comments, I have updated a new version 01 to
> follow the comments;
> >         The main updating is:
> >         1. More clearly described the intend of this draft in the introduction;
> >         2. Change the reference style;
> >         3. Refactor the reference section to make it more reasonable;
> >         4. I haven't change "IANA Consideration" at the moment given there is
> lots of discussion in this part and it is still up in the air, I will change this section
> next update the document once this part is finalized;
> >
> > <tp>
> > I still think that this is an unsatisfactory I-D and would oppose adoption in its
> present form,
> >
> > It is a question of veracity.  It claims to do what others have already done
> and does so without reference, without acknowledgement.  Having the
> same data defined in more than one place can only create confusion, in
> future if not now.
> >
> > This is a pattern and starts with the Abstract and continues throughout the
> I-D.
> >
> > Thus the Abstract claims 'this defines point-to-point interface type'.  No.
> This type was defined in RFC5309 and you need to say that and to say what if
> anything you are changing in that definition.  You should not reproduce text
> from that RFC unless you have to and then you should make it clear you are
> quoting.
> >
> > You do the same with Figure 1.  This is a copy, may be accurate may be not,
> it does not matter, from RFC8343 with no mention thereof.  You should not
> be reproducing such text without a good reason and then you should make it
> clear what is reproduced, from where and why.
> >
> > And as I have said already, IANA Considerations is yet again claiming to do
> what has already happened which can only confuse.  All that is needed as I
> said in a separate note  is to ask IANA to update two references, nothing
> more.
> >
> > Tom Petch
> >
> >         And I would like to share more background information for this internet
> draft:
> >         As Joel mentioned, we requested and received an IF Type assignment
> from IANA (with expert review) for point-to-point over Ethernet links several
> weeks ago and the p2pOverLan type is already added to IANA registry now;
> >         During the discussion around the assignment we noticed a doc
> describing why that is needed and how to use that would be helpful;
> >         For example, if no entry saying p2pOverLan layer over ethernet, the
> management will suffer since lose the ability to get to the Ethernet-specific
> management properties (Ethernet MIB or YANG model) via many tools; So
> we propose this draft to define a complete p2pOverLan ifStack(Including
> higher layer and lower layer);
> >
> > Brs
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail]
> <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 2:16 PM
> > To: Joel M. Halpern <[e-mail]>; draft-liu-lsr-
> [e-mail]
> > Subject: RE: [Lsr] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-liu-lsr-p2poverlan-00.txt
> >
> > Hi Joel, all,
> >
> > Please find some quick comments to this draft, fwiw:
> >
> > * pdf: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=e8e7d1aa-b77ce948-
> e8e79131-86073b36ea28-edbd778070bbec9a&q=1&e=d4a020c9-b337-41fd-
> bf1b-56dcfaef1044&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fboucadair%2FIETF-
> Drafts-Reviews%2Fblob%2Fmaster%2Fdraft-liu-lsr-p2poverlan-00-
> rev%2520Med.pdf
> > * doc: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=938b5849-cc1060ab-
> 938b18d2-86073b36ea28-e0406a2599fa2a6d&q=1&e=d4a020c9-b337-41fd-
> bf1b-56dcfaef1044&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fboucadair%2FIETF-
> Drafts-Reviews%2Fraw%2Fmaster%2Fdraft-liu-lsr-p2poverlan-00-
> rev%2520Med.docx
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >
> >> -----Message d'origine-----
> >> De : Lsr [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de Joel M. Halpern
> >> Envoyé : mercredi 16 juin 2021 22:47 À : Acee Lindem (acee)
> >> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] Objet : Re: [Lsr] Fwd: I-D Action:
> >> draft-liu-lsr-p2poverlan-00.txt
> >>
> >> This document (and the code point) are intended to be in line with
> >> 5309.
> >>    I believe they are.  If we got it wrong, please help us fix it.
> >>
> >> A reference would be reasonable to add.  (The IANA entry for the code
> >> point does reference 5309.)
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 6/16/2021 4:41 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>>
> >>> At first I wondered where this document should reside and then
> >> decided that LSR is probably as good as any other place.
> >>>
> >>> Can you guys check whether it is mostly in line with
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc5309/ and comment as to whether it
> >> should be referenced?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Acee
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 6/16/21, 11:10 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Joel M. Halpern" <lsr-
> >> [e-mail] on behalf of [e-mail]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>       Recently, Ericsson requested and received an IF Type
> >> assignment from
> >>>       IANA (with expert review) for point-to-point over Ethernet
> >> links.
> >>>
> >>>       It was noted during the discussion around the assignment that
> >> a document
> >>>       (eventually, we hope, an RFC) describing how to use that and
> >> why we
> >>>       asked for it would be helpful.
> >>>
> >>>       The below announcement is that draft.  We would like to work
> >> with the
> >>>       community to improve and clarify teh draft.
> >>>
> >>>       Thank you,
> >>>       Joel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       -------- Forwarded Message --------
> >>>       Subject: I-D Action: draft-liu-lsr-p2poverlan-00.txt
> >>>       Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 07:00:04 -0700
> >>>       From: [e-mail]
> >>>       Reply-To: [e-mail]
> >>>       To: [e-mail]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-
> >> Drafts
> >>>       directories.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>                Title           : Interface Stack Table Definition
> >> for Point to
> >>>       Point (P2P) Interface over LAN
> >>>                Authors         : Daiying Liu
> >>>                                  Joel Halpern
> >>>                                  Congjie Zhang
> >>>              Filename        : draft-liu-lsr-p2poverlan-00.txt
> >>>              Pages           : 7
> >>>              Date            : 2021-06-16
> >>>
> >>>       Abstract:
> >>>           The point-to-point circuit type is one of the mainly used
> >> circuit
> >>>           types in link state routing protocol.  It is important to
> >> identify
> >>>           the correct circuit type when forming adjacencies,
> >> flooding link
> >>>           state database packets, and monitor the link state.  This
> >> document
> >>>           defines point-to-point interface type and relevant stack
> >> tables to
> >>>           provide benefit for operation, maintenance and
> >> statistics.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> >>>       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-lsr-p2poverlan/
> >>>
> >>>       There is also an htmlized version available at:
> >>>       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-liu-lsr-
> >> p2poverlan-00
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> >>>       ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       _______________________________________________
> >>>       I-D-Announce mailing list
> >>>       [e-mail]
> >>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> >>>       Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> >>>       or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >>>
> >>>       _______________________________________________
> >>>       Lsr mailing list
> >>>       [e-mail]
> >>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Lsr mailing list
> >> [e-mail]
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
> >
> >
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