Re: [Manycouches] New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.txt

[Alexandre Petrescu <[e-mail]>]

Ok, it is not appropriate in this 'online meetings' document to talk 
about hybrid meetings.

But then, is it appropriate in an 'online meetings' document to stay 
within the requirements of fully in-person meetings?  Sounds like a 
discrepancy.

Alex


Le 16/11/2021 à 19:57, Martin Duke a écrit :
> This document has no relationship whatsoever to hybrid meetings. So 
> there is no "balance" between travel pain and middle-of-the-night pain.
> 
> The intent of the rotation is for fully remote meetings to share the 
> midnight pain equally across the 3 regions in the same way that travel 
> pain was. There was never accommodation in the past that Asia is big and 
> that flights across it are sometimes quite long, and IMO it would be 
> inappropriate to increase the weight of Asia now.
> 
> Martin
> 
> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:43 AM Alexandre Petrescu 
> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>     Le 16/11/2021 à 16:29, Martin Duke a écrit :
>      > Alexandre,
>      >
>      > I don't think we should move away from the existing consensus for an
>      > even split of Asia, Europe, and North America.
> 
>     I am not sure what do you mean?
> 
>     RFC8719 says "Note that the boundaries between those regions have been
>     purposefully left undefined."
> 
>     What was that purpose?
> 
>     Also RFC8719 says "It is important to note that such rotation and any
>     effects to distributing travel pain should be considered from a
>     long-term perspective. "
> 
>     That means _travel_ pain, not the wake up at night pain.
> 
>     Also, now the long term perspective is rather that there is less travel
>     pain but more remote meeting pain.
> 
>     The two pains are very different.
> 
>     When a majority travels and a minority wakes up at night the balance
>     should be stricken in favor of those who travel: minimize the pain of
>     those who travel.
> 
>     When a majority wakes up at night and a minority travels the balance
>     should be stricken in favor of those who wake up at night: minimize the
>     pain of those who wake up at night.
> 
>     Or maybe we disagree on this long term perspective?
> 
>     Alex
> 
>      >
>      > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 7:24 AM Alexandre Petrescu
>      > <[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >     Le 09/11/2021 à 14:33, Mirja Kuehlewind a écrit :
>      >      > Hi all,
>      >      >
>      >      > we resubmitted this draft with a minor but important change.
>      >     After all the extensive analysis we did we finally got the
>     numbers
>      >     wrong in the text...
>      >      >
>      >      > Mirja
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      > On 09.11.21, 14:31, "[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>      >     <mailto:[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>>" <[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>      >     <mailto:[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>>> wrote:
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      >      A new version of I-D,
>      >     draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.txt
>      >      >      has been successfully submitted by Mirja Kühlewind and
>      >     posted to the
>      >      >      IETF repository.
>      >      >
>      >      >      Name:            draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting
>      >      >      Revision:        03
>      >      >      Title:           Guidelines for the Organization of Fully
>      >     Online Meetings
>      >      >      Document date:   2021-11-09
>      >      >      Group:           Individual Submission
>      >      >      Pages:           10
>      >      >      URL:
>      >
>     https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.txt
>     <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.txt>
>      >   
>       <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.txt <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.txt>>
>      >      >      Status:
>      >
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting/
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting/>
>      >   
>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting/>>
>      >      >      Html:
>      >
>     https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.html
>     <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.html>
>      >   
>       <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.html <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.html>>
>      >      >      Htmlized:
>      >
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting>
>      >   
>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting>>
>      >      >      Diff:
>      >
>     https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03
>     <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03>
>      >   
>       <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03 <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03>>
>      >      >
>      >      >      Abstract:
>      >      >         This document provides guidelines for the planning and
>      >     organization
>      >      >         of fully online meetings, regarding the number,
>     length, and
>      >      >         composition of sessions on the meeting agenda.  These
>      >     guidelines are
>      >      >         based on the experience after the COVID-19
>     pandemic in 2020.
>      >
>      >     It says:
>      >      >
>      >   
>       +===============+=========================+=========================+
>      >      >    | Name          | Times (Northern Summer) | Times
>     (Northern
>      >           |
>      >      >    |               |                         | Winter)
>      >           |
>      >      >
>      >   
>       +===============+=========================+=========================+
>      >      >    | North America | 0500-1100 UTC           | 0600-1200 UTC
>      >           |
>      >      >    | Night         |                         |
>      >           |
>      >      >
>      >   
>       +---------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
>      >      >    | Asia Night    | 1300-1900 UTC           | 1400-2000 UTC
>      >           |
>      >      >
>      >   
>       +---------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
>      >      >    | Europe Night  | 2200-0400 UTC           | 2200-0400 UTC
>      >           |
>      >      >
>      >   
>       +---------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
>      >
>      >     I propose to say:
>      >
>      >
>      >   
>       +===============+=========================+=========================+
>      >          | Name          | Times (Northern Summer) | Times (Northern
>      >           |
>      >          |               |                         | Winter)
>      >           |
>      >
>      >   
>       +===============+=========================+=========================+
>      >          | North America | 0500-1100 UTC           | 0600-1200 UTC
>      >           |
>      >          | Night         |                         |
>      >           |
>      >
>      >   
>       +---------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
>      >          | Asia Night    | 1100-1700 UTC           | 1200-1800 UTC
>      >           |
>      >
>      >   
>       +---------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
>      >          | Asia 2 Night  | 1700-2300 UTC           | 1800-0000 UTC
>      >           |
>      >
>      >   
>       +---------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
>      >          | Europe Night  | 2300-0500 UTC           | 0000-0600 UTC
>      >           |
>      >
>      >   
>       +---------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
>      >
>      >     What do you think?
>      >
>      >     Alex
>      >
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      >      The IETF Secretariat
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