Re: [MBONED] mboned notes ietf 118 (fwd)

[Leonard Giuliano <[e-mail]>]

Also, forgot to thank Stig for taking these notes.  Lots of discussion and 
back-and-forth, so we greatly appreciate these notes under such 
challenging conditions.


On Thu, 9 Nov 2023, Leonard Giuliano wrote:

| 
| MBONEDers- here are the notes from today's mtg.  Please take a look and add
| any fixes you might see now that it's fresh on the mind.  You can send edits
| to the chairs, or just edit directly at:
| 
| https://notes.ietf.org/s/notes-ietf-118-mboned#
| 
| *****
| 
| Notes from mboned
| 
| Multicast telemetry doc passed wglc since 117
| Looking for shepherd.
| -Max volunteered to shepherd
| 
| YANG model draft. Sandy says received some comments from Tom and will update.
| Sandy says redundant ingress failover doc should be ready for wglc
| AMT yang model draft needs more review and comments.
| 
| Updates on MTTB drafts from Max. Dorms may be ready for wglc.
| 
| Multicast Extensions for QUIC
| Dino asking how it is working with keys.
| Asking if retransmit as uc or mc if many clients don't act. Basic idea is that
| draft doesn't specify how to retransmit. Saying how unicast might be better if
| multicast failures.
| Toerless asking if thought about NAT
| Not sure if I got that right.
| Someone (one of the authors?) saying that can kick client off multicast if too
| many failures.
| A comment that many options how to do acks, may not need to ack every packet.
| Mathias asking if this is just SSM. It seems that way.
| Someone (think an author) saying this is harder for ASM with many sources.
| 
| Ice asking if routers do QUIC, I think.
| Someone clarifying that lost packets are not retransmitted, but rather data is
| retransmitted.
| 
| Dino asking for more details on integrity.
| Integrity frames are sent over unicast. Contains checksums of packets. Used to
| verify multicast packets.
| 
| Lucas Pardue Explaining about other approaches for integrity.
| 
| Francois Michel
| Commenting on many to many, didn't get it, but presenter says out of scope for
| now.
| 
| Juliusz
| Asking about what crypto to use. Presenter says he can't recommend a specific
| one.
| 
| Lenny
| Cautions about adding complexity to address ASM. May make it harder to deploy.
| Interdomain ASM was deprecated for a reason, recommend keeping scope at
| SSM-only.
| 
| Dino
| Asking if DH on multicast channels, rather than publishing shared key.
| Juliusz mentions that 2 layers, encryption and authentication.
| 
| Toerless
| Make it slow enough for the slowest guy?
| Presenter says can be different channels with different rates.
| Rely on clients joining slower channels if rate is too high for them.
| Suggesting can keep it simple and just throw slowest guy out if needed.
| Presenter says draft not specifying whether 1 or multiple channels. Not
| specified.
| Toerless says a draft on multi channel behavior may be needed.
| 
| Francois Michel
| Missed comment.
| 
| Juliusz
| Asking if can do FEC for unreliable data. Says can work well.
| Presenter says easy to do.
| 
| Gorry
| Says congestion control in QUIC is very terse.
| 
| Hitoshi asking about use of different FEC for different clients I think. Seems
| not something they thought about.
| 
| Dino asking about cost of signatures. Whether to do it over just a few bytes
| or not. Maybe it can be cheap.
| 
| Lucas talking about how use cases are important.
| 
| Gorry Says a separate draft on congestion control could be useful to get help
| from CC experts. Says vital to get it right.
| Greg asking if CC would be in QUIC itself or applications using it.
| Historically for multicast it's been in the application.
| Gorry not sure right now.
| Toerless, there is a CC WG.
| 
| 
| Scalability analysis comparison of multicast/BIER forwarding mechanisms
| (https://atlas.cs.uni-tuebingen.de/*menth/papers/Menth21-Sub-5.pdf)
| Michael Menth, 20 min
| 
| Juliusz
| Made some comment on worst case, I missed it.
| 
| Greg
| Does not agree what presenter said about bier being bad for small groups. It
| may not generally be true.
| It depends on whether receivers are in the same bitset.
| 
| Dino
| Asking why multiple sets if few members. Greg is explaining.
| 
| No more questions.
| 
| TreeDN update by Lenny
| WGLC soon in mops wg
| input from MBONED and PIM would be welcome
| 
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