Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication without having to do timekeeping?
Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> Thu, 21 March 2013 15:30 UTC
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:29:53 +0100
From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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To: Ahmad Muhanna <amuhanna@awardsolutions.com>
References: <514206FE.7050807@gmail.com> <3359F724933DFD458579D24EAC769098857A51DC@Redwood.usa.awardsolutions.com> <51421CB9.1080100@gmail.com> <CD85F32117029D4F9AEF48BDEF5536AB10215B92@xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com> <514223C4.8010905@gmail.com> <CD85F32117029D4F9AEF48BDEF5536AB10215BCB@xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com> <514226A9.9020700@gmail.com> <CD85F32117029D4F9AEF48BDEF5536AB10215C28@xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com> <51422787.5060509@gmail.com> <CD85F32117029D4F9AEF48BDEF5536AB10215C72@xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com> <51422BCB.30409@gmail.com> <CD85F32117029D4F9AEF48BDEF5536AB10215CA7@xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com> <51422D07.9070901@gmail.com> <CD85F32117029D4F9AEF48BDEF5536AB10215CD2@xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com> <51422F1C.7000705@gmail.com> <CD85F32117029D4F9AEF48BDEF5536AB10215CEC@xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com> <514243D0.2090309@gmail.com> <3359F724933DFD458579D24EAC769098857A54B0@Redwood.usa.awardsolutions.com>
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Cc: "Kent Leung (kleung)" <kleung@cisco.com>, "mip4@ietf.org" <mip4@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication without having to do timekeeping?
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Le 14/03/2013 23:14, Ahmad Muhanna a écrit : > Alex, > > The MN/MR needs to send another RRQ; It is not just a warning. > Otherwise, its Registration will timeout and the HA will delete its > binding. YEs, that is right. But the specification doesn't say that so explicitely. > There was a reason for the MN to send a Re-Registration, most > probably extends its registration lifetime, for example. If the Reply > is NOT successful, the MN can NOT assume its registration has been > extended successfully. Thus, the MN/MR needs to send another RRQ. Yes. > This uis the behavior I have seen many times of very popular MIP4 > MNs. > > BTW: also, the purpose of 133 error code is to let the MN know that > its time stamp is NOT in synch with the HA. Usually, the Mobile node > will adjust its timestamp according to what is coming from the HA. I > have seen this a lot!! :-) Ok. So we now do it as well. Our implementation of MR works with the HA from that manufacturarer - synchronizes time. I will post separately the procedure. Alex > > Anyhow; enjoy your IETF meeting! > > Best Regards, Ahmad > > -----Original Message----- From: mip4-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:mip4-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandru Petrescu Sent: > Thursday, March 14, 2013 4:41 PM To: Kent Leung (kleung) Cc: > mip4@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq > authentication without having to do timekeeping? > > Kent, > > Thanks for the discussion and clarification. Thanks for the pointer > to the spec RFC5944 says: > > " Code 133: (Denied by home agent, registration Identification > mismatch) > > In this case, the Identification field in the Registration Reply will > contain a value that allows the mobile node to synchronize with the > home agent, based upon the style of replay protection in effect > (Section 5.7). The mobile node MUST adjust the parameters it uses to > compute the Identification field based upon the information in the > Registration Reply, before issuing any future Registration > Requests." > > When we read this last phrase we didnt see an incentive to send > another RREQ containing the Id copied from the RREP. Reads more like > a warning to take care next time, but it doesnt explicitely say that > the HA expects a RREQ in the immediate, and that the MR should send > it. > > We could only rely on the error log in the HA, which doesnt invite to > send another RREQ either, it says: > > "Mar 11 09:35:55.107: MobileIP: HA rejects registration for MN > 13.8.9.3 - registration id mismatch (133) Mar 11 09:35:55.107: > MobileIP: Sending Registration Reply message for MN 13.8.9.3 with > Lifetime 40, Home Address 13.8.9.3, Home Agent 13.8.9.4 Code 133 " > > Alex > > Le 14/03/2013 21:15, Kent Leung (kleung) a écrit : >> Timestamp is one of the fields in the message that is protected by >> key using a hash function. Since we are at IETF, let's talk >> offline as this seems to need some clarification and hand waving. >> :) >> >> Kent >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Alexandru Petrescu >> [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 14, >> 2013 1:12 PM To: Kent Leung (kleung) Cc: mip4@ietf.org Subject: >> Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication without having to >> do timekeeping? >> >> Le 14/03/2013 21:07, Kent Leung (kleung) a écrit : >>> The Authenticator value is different for RRQ vs RRP. The >>> extension carries different value based on the message. The way >>> to calculate the value requires the shared key between MR and HA. >>> So it's not easy for an attacker to know the key. >> >> Yes, there is a key which is hardly guessable. >> >> Do you think the same key could be used precisely in the same >> manner in the first place, for the first RREQ, without timestamp? >> >> Alex >> >>> >>> Kent >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Alexandru Petrescu >>> [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 14, >>> 2013 1:03 PM To: Kent Leung (kleung) Cc: mip4@ietf.org Subject: >>> Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication without having >>> to do timekeeping? >>> >>> Le 14/03/2013 20:59, Kent Leung (kleung) a écrit : >>>> The RRP1 cannot be faked since the MN-HA Auth Ext protects the >>>> message. >>> >>> I strongly doubt that. Were it so, then the same extension >>> could protect the first RRQ1 as well. >>> >>> I believe it is possible for an attacker HA to intercept the >>> initial RRQ1(time=1970), and the RRP1(time=2013) and fake a RREP >>> towards the MR. No? >>> >>> Alex >>> >>>> >>>> Kent >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Alexandru Petrescu >>>> [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March >>>> 14, 2013 12:58 PM To: Kent Leung (kleung) Cc: mip4@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication >>>> without having to do timekeeping? >>>> >>>> Le 14/03/2013 20:47, Kent Leung (kleung) a écrit : >>>>> Hmm, I'm not clear with your response. >>>>> >>>>> Let's assume the following scenario. >>>>> >>>>> 1. MR sends initial RRQ1 (time=a) to HA 2. HA sends RRP1 >>>>> (time=b) with code 133 >>>> >>>> Ok. Do you think MR receiving this RRP1 will be able to >>>> safele verify it is legitimate? Or is it possible than an >>>> attacker HA fakes this RRP1 message? >>>> >>>>> 3. MR sends RRQ2 (time=b+) 4. HA sends RRP2(time=b+) => >>>>> registration successful 5. After MR recovers from failure, MR >>>>> sends RRQ3(time=c) 6. HA sends RRP3(time=d) with code 133 7. >>>>> MR sends RRQ4(time=d+) 8. HA sends RRP4(time=d+) => >>>>> reregistration successful >>>> >>>> These latter steps 3-8 make sense. >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>>> >>>>> We would need to confirm if #6 happens properly for a >>>>> specific vendor. :) But I would expect #7 should happen if >>>>> code 133 is received. >>>>> >>>>> Kent >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: mip4-bounces@ietf.org >>>>> [mailto:mip4-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandru >>>>> Petrescu Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 12:40 PM To: >>>>> mip4@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq >>>>> authentication without having to do timekeeping? >>>>> >>>>> Le 14/03/2013 20:38, Kent Leung (kleung) a écrit : >>>>>> >>>>>> It needs to have the time, even if it does second >>>>>> registration. It's not a problem it takes longer (we can >>>>>> send easily two messages). But the second message will also >>>>>> be refused by the HA because it still has the wrong time. >>>>>> >>>>>> KL> Why is the timestamp in the 2nd RRQ wrong? >>>>> >>>>> Because the computer has lost its time, because it was turned >>>>> off long time (vehicle in garage for several weeks in winter >>>>> time). It now has year 1970. >>>>> >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kent >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- Mip4 mailing list: Mip4@ietf.org Web interface: >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip4 Charter page: >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/mip4-charter.html >>>>> Supplemental site: http://www.mip4.org/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > -- Mip4 mailing list: Mip4@ietf.org Web interface: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip4 Charter page: > http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/mip4-charter.html Supplemental > site: http://www.mip4.org/ > >
- [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication wit… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Ahmad Muhanna
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Kent Leung (kleung)
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Ahmad Muhanna
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Kent Leung (kleung)
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Ahmad Muhanna
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Kent Leung (kleung)
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Ahmad Muhanna
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Kent Leung (kleung)
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Ahmad Muhanna
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Kent Leung (kleung)
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Kent Leung (kleung)
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Kent Leung (kleung)
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Ahmad Muhanna
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Kent Leung (kleung)
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Ahmad Muhanna
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Mip4] Does MIP support RegReq authentication… Ahmad Muhanna