Re: [Moq] References for CMAF in the WARP draft, etc.

[Thomas Stockhammer <[e-mail]>]

Colleagues,

I share the frustration.

We can do one thing - publish a draft 4th edition from Rennes meeting on the publicly available site https://www.mpeg.org/meetings/mpeg-145/

Other than this, I would bombard ISO with requests for publishing these core specs for free.

Thomas
________________________________
From: Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2024 2:01 AM
To: Cyril Concolato <[e-mail]>; Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; MOQ Mailing List <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; Thomas Stockhammer <[e-mail]>; Krasimir Kolarov <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Moq] References for CMAF in the WARP draft, etc.


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Hi,



Wearing the hat of the IETF liaison manager to ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29.



During the development of an I-D, the use of informal shortcuts as suggested by Cyril to get access to material proposed to be normatively referenced in an RFC-to-be seems common practice.  As long as no one complains, I think you are fine.  This is assuming that pretty much everyone involved with CMAF-related work in the IETF can legally access the ISO documents under development, though employer, school, or other ways.  However, the latest at IETF last call, and often already during WGLC, and sometimes earlier when the subject matter is contentious and interested people erect procedural hurdles, access to the normative references is required not only to those people in the know, but also to people remote to the technology in question—for example, Area Directors, or the reviewers assigned by the various Directorates, or anyone with a corresponding request, legitimate or not.  Once you get to that stage, I suggest you follow what’s written under “Document Access” here: https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/ISO_liaison_relationship  Basically, someone (one of you guys, or me ex officio), provides the FDIS of the ISO spec to be referenced, on request only, and only to the requester, with the understanding that the spec not be distributed further.  This mechanism is known to work and was found acceptable by the responsible ISO Committee Manager.



Referring to the fact that ISO specs are available for purchase, or that one could join MPEG through NBs to gain access to working documents, has not been sufficient for a long time, and I strongly recommend against attempting such an argument.



I assume many here are interested in seeing IETF-referenced ISO specs to become available for immediate download and free of charge, just like I-Ds and RFCs.  I propose that those of you join the ever-growing chorus of MPEG experts asking for the same thing.  However, the tendency in ISO over the last several years has been to be more, and not less, restrictive in granting access to its specifications without money.



ITU Recommendations and DASH-IF guidelines are free for download and not an issue.



Thanks,

Stephan





From: Cyril Concolato <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, February 8, 2024 at 14:07
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, MOQ Mailing List <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]>, Thomas Stockhammer <[e-mail]>, Krasimir Kolarov <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Moq] References for CMAF in the WARP draft, etc.

Hi all,



Adding Krasimir who is the main chair of CMAF group. I'm co-chair together with Thomas (also editor).



You can certainly use official liaisons to ask your questions. You can also contact us directly for quick, non-official responses.



Can you clarify (in a private email if you prefer) what are your "questions about "available normative references""?



Is it about what is the official reference to the latest CMAF specification? In that case, the 3rd edition of the specification has been sent to ISO and should be published soon. If it helps, the group maintains a public GitHub page documenting the status of the various editions and amendments of the specification: https://github.com/MPEGGroup/CMAF/



Is it about having access to a free-of-charge version of the standard? MPEG members have access to the Final Draft International Standard which is technically equivalent to the version published by ISO, through MPEG's document management system: https://dms.mpeg.expert/. You can obtain credentials through your ISO National Body.



HTH,

Cyril



On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:43 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

Dear MOQ,



There was some discussion about using CMAF in WARP, and questions about "available normative references", etc.



My suggestion would be that the chairs contact Stephan Wenger (copied), who is the current IETF liaison to ISO/IEC JTC1 SC29. He is well familiar with the path between IETF and ISO, especially for access to ISO references for use by IETF reviewers.



He is also fresh off helping to make this connection happen for IESG review of SCIP <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-scip/> from AVTCORE. A quick(?) peek at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?q=draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-scip shows what can go wrong if a working group isn't proactive.



The other question for the working group is whether implementers will be willing to use the CMAF specification from ISO versus ITU-T or DASH-IF, but that's another question.



Best,



Spencer

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