Re: [mpls] Do you care about MNA?

["Dongjie (Jimmy)" <[e-mail]>]

Hi Igor,

Thanks for sharing your considerations on the requirements and deployments

Please see some comments inline:


From: mpls <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Igor Malyushkin
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2024 9:48 AM
To: Tianran Zhou <[e-mail]>
Cc: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=[e-mail]>; mpls <[e-mail]>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston=[e-mail]>; Zhukeyi(Kaiyin,Datacom Standard&Patent) <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [mpls] Do you care about MNA?

Hi Tianran,

Please, see my comments inline.

ср, 3 апр. 2024 г. в 08:11, Tianran Zhou <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>:
The document LC is concluded. So I split this dedicated thread.

Hi Igor,

Thanks very much for your feedback. Really interesting to know your use case.
I have some further questions.

As Stewart mentioned, NFRR can be achieved with existing MPLS architecture.
[IM] Sure. Currently, folks are trying to implement it on a service layer, like the EVPN FRR. From our point of view, it is cumbersome.

[Jie] In my understanding, what Stewart mentioned is NFFRR on the LSP layer, which can also be achieved by giving additional semantics to MPLS labels. That will be only based on control plane extensions.

Would you accept other way to achieve NFRR or you must use MNA?
[IM] As a tactical solution we may use an alternative way if and only if it does not depend on a service layer. At the same time, if MNA emerges, and gives us a framework for many possibilities (like network slicing or programming, that we may consider for future needs), it is more interesting to have a unified solution.

[Jie] My reading is what you want now is a NFFRR solution on the LSP layer, which may or may not require MNA. Do you have urgent requirements on other MNA use cases (e.g. slicing, IOAM, etc.)? You mentioned the MNA framework gives the possibilities, while it would be better if you can also provide the estimated time frame for them.

If you want to get this feature/MNA, are you going to replace existing devices or only upgrade software/firmware?
[IM] It depends on many factors. Of course, nobody wants to replace all devices only to receive a single feature, and a software/firmware upgrade is always preferable. Nevertheless, some work with gear upgrades is always active. If we have the option to upgrade devices incrementally (for some confined parts of the network), receiving the required functionality in parallel, we can consider this way either.

[Jie] Fully agree that the deployment and upgrade plan is something operators would pay much attention to, that information is also valuable to the vendors. If the recent requirement is just NFFRR (a single feature as you said), solutions with software upgrade would be preferable. If you also want other features in addition to NFFRR, it may be helpful to know the capability of the existing hardware to figure out which MNA functionalities require a gear upgrade, and whether they can be done incrementally.

Best regards,
Jie

Best,
Tianran

发件人: mpls <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> 代表 Igor Malyushkin
发送时间: 2024年4月2日 23:24
收件人: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
抄送: mpls <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Zhukeyi(Kaiyin,Datacom Standard&Patent) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
主题: Re: [mpls] 2nd Working Group Last call on draft-ietf-mpls-mna-requirements

Hi Tianran,

I'm obviously not Andrew, but as an operator, we are particularly interested in the NFRR case described in draft-ietf-mpls-mna-usecases (section 2.1).
We are not going to deploy SRv6 in the near future, and we extensively use MPLS (not SR-like), NFRR will give us the ability to prevent temporal looping in case of node failures with egress protection technologies.

вт, 2 апр. 2024 г. в 22:02, Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>:
Hi Andrew,

No, I did not ask who will not deploy NMA. I care about who will deploy NMA, and what’s the use case.
I did not say IETF can only work on one solution. But I want to understand the value of the solution.
The fact is I do not see any real user nor operator sharing the requirement and use case.
Now I know you claim the need of MNA as an operator, which is perfect.
I appreciate your input to the requirement and use case. How will you use MNA?


Best,
Tianran



发件人: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
发送时间: 2024年4月2日 21:05
收件人: Tianran Zhou <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Tony Li <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Adrian Farrel <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
抄送: mpls <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Zhukeyi(Kaiyin,Datacom Standard&Patent) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
主题: Re: [mpls] 2nd Working Group Last call on draft-ietf-mpls-mna-requirements

Hi Tianran,

I find this email to be a little… confusing.

Firstly it is very well documented that there are multiple operators that do not want – and will not deploy – srv6 (particularly with its divergence from Ipv6 standards and potential security flaws.). These operators are free to make a choice in technologies – and the IETF does not prohibit the creation of multiple solutions to the same problem.  Indeed RFC7221 deals with competing design goals by citing http://dl.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=966726 – specifically it states “Helicopters are great, and so are submarines.  The problem is that if you try to build one vehicle to perform two fundamentally different jobs, you’re going to get a vehcile that does neither job well.”

You therefore need to acknowledge that operators may have different use cases and different environments, and may choose to decide to use one technology over another.  Yes, there are times when we want a single solution, but at the end of the day, the operators, who are your employers customers, should be the ultimate determinants of what they choose to run, and there is no requirement in any IETF process to state that there can only be a single solution to a problem.

Secondly, you refer to reinventing the wheel – it can be strongly argued that parts of SRv6 did indeed reinvent the sr-mpls wheel, while reinventing various other competing technologies.  By way of example, it is entirely possible to create L3VPN’s – and has been for years – without the use of SRv6.  So in this sense, you are correct that we sometimes reinvent the wheel – for various reasons and various purposes – and to meet operator requirements.  This is exactly what happened in the case of SRv6, and it is part and parcel of what the ietf does, to create solutions that cater to the needs of the internet in general, not a single vendor, not a single operator.  SRv6 does NOT meet the requirements of all operators, and to insist that it does is to disregard potential customers.

You are also correct in stating that many people do not care about MNA – because they are quite happy with what they are running and are happy to continue using their currect technologies.  However, the statement seems predicated on the fact that everyone cares about SRv6 – let me 100% assure you that is not the case.  Indeed – if you watch the MSR6 BOF (which should be available on youtube), a particular individual from a large operator directly stated (slightly paraphrased) “This presentation is predicated on the fact that we all care about SRv6 – I am here to tell you we don’t” So while your statement is accurate – it is not in any way an argument against the adoption of MNA.

I would STRONGLY suggest you read RFC7282 as well – which heavy refers to technical objections and even deals with a situation where one thing is considered a more elegant and clean solution, yet consensus is still found (Please see section 3 of the aforementioned RFC)

In this particular case, on the specific grounds that there are operators who wish to have extended network functionality – but are not comfortable with SRv6 and do not believe in its security compromises – I fully support the advancement of MNA.

I am curious however if you have any substantive technical issues with the document – that go beyond “There is something else to do this” (which as stated – some operators do not agree with and do not want – and will never run until outstanding issues have been resolved)

Thanks

Andrew





Internal All Employees
From: mpls <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=[e-mail]<mailto:zhoutianran=[e-mail]>>
Date: Saturday, 30 March 2024 at 03:29
To: Tony Li <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Adrian Farrel <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: mpls <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Zhukeyi(Kaiyin,Datacom Standard&Patent) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: [mpls] 2nd Working Group Last call on draft-ietf-mpls-mna-requirements
Hi Adrian,

IMO, this document still cannot address the question why the industry or operators need the MNA, given there is already SRv6.
>From the very beginning, we just reinvent a wheel.
There is no surprise many people do not care about MNA.
I do not support.

Tianran

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Tony Li
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2024 11:35 PM
To: Adrian Farrel <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: mpls <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [mpls] 2nd Working Group Last call on draft-ietf-mpls-mna-requirements


[WG chair hat: off]

Looks good, ship it, modulo Greg’s comments.

T


> On Mar 21, 2024, at 8:21 AM, Adrian Farrel <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I know it is IETF week and you all have other things to do (nice
> meals, sight-seeing, combatting jet-lag), but I just wanted to remind
> you to look at this document and make your comments about the last call.
>
> With last calls, silence generally means no support!
>
> Best,
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: 12 March 2024 16:46
> To: 'mpls' <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
> Subject: [mpls] 2nd Working Group Last call on
> draft-ietf-mpls-mna-requirements
>
> This email starts a second MPLS working group last call on
> draft-ietf-mpls-mna-requirements.
>
> (You may recall that the first last call produced a lot of discussion
> and issues that Matthew, as editor, has worked valiantly to resolve.)
>
> Please re-review the document (it has changed a lot since last time)
> and express an opinion on the list.
> - Is the document complete?
> - Does it contain any errors?
> - Is it ready to move forward for publication as an Informational RFC?
>
> There is no IPR disclosed against this document or its predecessors.
> All authors, contributors, and active working group participants are
> reminded of their responsibilities under BCP 79.
>
> This last call will run for three weeks (covering the IETF period). It
> will end at 17.00 UTC on Tuesday 2nd April (narrowly avoiding ending
> on 1st April and confusing us all).
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian (for the MPLS chairs)
>
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