Re: [netmod] submodules the hidden benefits

tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> Thu, 06 August 2020 09:29 UTC

Return-Path: <ietfc@btconnect.com>
X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60E93A107E for <netmod@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 02:29:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JkO8ySWr1jpn for <netmod@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 02:29:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr80119.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.8.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E5CF3A0FEE for <netmod@ietf.org>; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 02:29:04 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Sm2q4w6olUU42zuqktO4n7oc4FHSrhtz3rYSPpjMS/pJTdC/f8BBKVeGjfGRerFRNON19HAMdncr4AU2Pug2vpZMDAu+qdnmq1qw6DR0YwM+58xyZcziMOV4QBJ4A7nu6O4VYsXgGOg6mon+uDrn8XVkEVVChbGm5dn8liXYy9BeYeHnPiKHRrS1qwygXGm+xG/HmWlLNdkvoU8+turkBHkLslwG6vFHkc+6ZyrphEhZuhylvDjBBS9utU4hZwsUSLJayBeiHNzbLYDQlTl6zKNJob/EnS30jj4ukLVQgzAvi7d5fAduSe+dhWpvt3CEvSZvcQ2IierP13KRrg2Ovg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=e3qcDYFYChgKkVtbABnOeabAppQu9EphKsm842eY+1M=; b=Kmwg3KvfQDS4ma2C/CJIag4eicTX1BtIBBR74eLCDpjMs9gMslVgzyj+I3Y2Qi8JPl5yNg2wlwSGY+PB+SqzFQ4ZaLKscXpBrLn43XAlAcEaz37mPotWtCIpJmVd2/dq7NHja7Wp9KQCKUlb5f+pj7coEVpLTzWC1VdPaFQ8tWKOxQBCz5gJAvq6TtCfdH3IZ6IYlzsEaVpOtgXxsO3L3NlKFVvN1wEKy7hiRvxB2KKnFZogH0+5iifYI7lQPnncWvGFTPLM0oxygBilCW+REwAoUrR4xIgymiqedTbrAiylY8Ko4RkFjUWpgCVSysvsrtNE3vj7IR2swWb/0kbmjw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=btconnect.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=btconnect.com; dkim=pass header.d=btconnect.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-btconnect-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=e3qcDYFYChgKkVtbABnOeabAppQu9EphKsm842eY+1M=; b=mzHkTWjjBl90wxtxx8lZJfH6wbjbEd2KJ8iIzdgtH86JleeQTcRe+pl3IIE1Tphs8lvOy+Oh4OJg+PqX1lEjgf22Fi5Z8hBKYBYZC5Q2Hl7PlV9jQOMYmPvjdZc1skado+FyIwHN/TVlWAm4Ix/E/c79WSVGwFSi6CHcLF41izo=
Received: from AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:134::11) by AM6PR0702MB3592.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:209:10::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3239.11; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:29:02 +0000
Received: from AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b570:437a:db46:400a]) by AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b570:437a:db46:400a%9]) with mapi id 15.20.3261.015; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:29:01 +0000
From: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>
To: Jan Lindblad <janl@tail-f.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
CC: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] submodules the hidden benefits
Thread-Index: AQHWa0OrgXBZwt3Ye0GkFXMWiJkMiakpuesAgABMlQD//8MwAIAAU1oAgACsdgCAAAU0yw==
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:29:01 +0000
Message-ID: <AM7PR07MB62485B8C82D6E391246693AFA0480@AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AM7PR07MB6248D2079B3637B626198C43A04B0@AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <20200805164820.rv35b74xhc4v7qrx@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <6125f3e3-0caf-ed25-92b7-bdb644c54d08@lightside-instruments.com> <9F39EC3C-CCEB-4079-BF83-D9C163773757@cisco.com> <FC05AC44-6BFF-49FC-85E0-BB9692C210AC@gmail.com>, <53B475D1-5E9E-4A05-A4D5-D7D4254065A5@tail-f.com>
In-Reply-To: <53B475D1-5E9E-4A05-A4D5-D7D4254065A5@tail-f.com>
Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US
Content-Language: en-GB
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: tail-f.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;tail-f.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com;
x-originating-ip: [81.131.229.35]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 32b1d40f-ce94-4f17-f68c-08d839eb27be
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR0702MB3592:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <AM6PR0702MB3592915CBC19104AEA590538A0480@AM6PR0702MB3592.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: CqAImlkXEQLok50mqW9ZOtmCgzMMNp0js06rwIfnEaxTGo+PNYrjwdUN437JGRrT/i8m6BVUd/3b42Dt0wlZ4kA//Hs11SMnZlFZEmSiItrTQyKPQKnb/fuvmgk+qlnoAOm8YmbNZQNtmcRkKT0ZNJciiCLu2MP8NfVlL4RPFKC/ZZ5huNAAMAZEd3NuD5MqQ3MpAvZ+oE6Pi+G3bSSK0FZ2sxQG8WA1eL4f9TMkmxgGQY8F3/1kzwznjZqH7U6EYLrA9TvVXWcl7zqFpd7SH2X7AiM/hBLl64TQpUCViJ2an5N81wWbySL6a26H4SoUWbr45oiY48FTaqjRXDfDKEtx2op7g2t70GU2uQnQD/gqmPD7DTJ7vndjv0l5UzV0J0YS+r6BNah4UiZ//htSiA==
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(366004)(136003)(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(396003)(52536014)(4326008)(9686003)(7696005)(71200400001)(186003)(2906002)(33656002)(5660300002)(53546011)(6506007)(26005)(478600001)(966005)(8676002)(8936002)(64756008)(66446008)(316002)(66946007)(66476007)(110136005)(55016002)(66556008)(86362001)(91956017)(76116006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 32b1d40f-ce94-4f17-f68c-08d839eb27be
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Aug 2020 09:29:01.8803 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: zpEb5krJ27MQMRoj0K/ulsIyiy5wxU2tZD+o2vFao0o4+pMsUQj2T4ijO0480wpCZ7l4FIYpmsiZbTNdPiYU7g==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR0702MB3592
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/UZ8T6pbJSuUyUmvqAmeaYSn-LVM>
Subject: Re: [netmod] submodules the hidden benefits
X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: NETMOD WG list <netmod.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/netmod>, <mailto:netmod-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/netmod/>
List-Post: <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:netmod-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod>, <mailto:netmod-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 09:29:07 -0000

Many thanks to all the responses so far; most helpful and much appreciated.  As a point of information, the I-D that triggered this, draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model, is out for, or about to be,  YANG Doctor review so one of you can express a more formal opinon thereon.  (Perhaps it will be the YANG Doctor who gladdened my heart when they said that this grouping is only used once so there is no point in making this a grouping:-).

Again, more for the benefit of the chosen YANG Doctor, the prefix in this I-D are all over the place IMHO.  Setting aside the use of two letter prefix such as  bp: ,bt:.  br:, there are 100 or so places where the prefix will have be to edited - look for example at the use of rpol for routing policy instead of rt-pol.

And I was wrong to say that I had not seen submodules before - I had forgotten about RFC8349.

Tom Petch.

________________________________________
From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Jan Lindblad <janl@tail-f.com>
Sent: 06 August 2020 10:00

I have to agree with the long list of "Costs" of submodules listed in this thread, and can attest to the brevity of the "Benefits" side. The globally accumulated amount of gray hairs produced by the YANG 1.0 submodule rules is best measured in cubic meters.

The YANG 1.1 rules are much more in line with industry expectation in my experience, but the fact that the rules differ greatly between the two YANG versions with unchanged syntax and that many tools still do not properly support the YANG 1.1 submodule inclusion rules to this date (despite otherwise boasting YANG 1.1 support for long) is additional salt in a sore world.

One central point that has been missed in the discussion on the merits of modules vs. submodules is the implications this choice has on module versioning. Since versioning happens on the module/namespace level, there is a major difference between releasing 10 modules which are versioned independently, or one module with 10 submodules, which would have a single module version. If this point goes on the "Costs" or "Benefits" side in the book keeping, I'll leave open to interpretation.

/jan


On 6 Aug 2020, at 00:43, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com<mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>> wrote:

A contrarian view:


I find the use of sub-modules helpful when I want to use separate files to maintain part of the module that is logically separate, while maintaining/restricting the use of them to a single namespace.

The fact that tools have a problem with trying to compile a sub-module can be addressed in the tools themselves.

On Aug 5, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:rrahman=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:

Indeed
https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/26

´╗┐On 2020-08-05, 5:22 PM, "netmod on behalf of Vladimir Vassilev" <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of vladimir@lightside-instruments.com<mailto:vladimir@lightside-instruments.com>> wrote:

   On 05/08/2020 18.48, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:

I personally meanwhile believe that sub-modules add complexity with
little extra value but this view surely is not shared by others.

   +1. IMO removing sub-modules from YANG 2.0 should be on the list of
   proposed changes.

   /Vladimir

   _______________________________________________
   netmod mailing list
   netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod