Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes
Alessandro Amirante <alex@meetecho.com> Wed, 31 July 2019 09:27 UTC
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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From: Alessandro Amirante <alex@meetecho.com>
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Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:27:42 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes
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Il 31/07/19 00:08, Michael Richardson ha scritto: > > Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 03:20:03PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> +5. I find that the most important thing that the IETF meeting > >> (network) does for people, is that it gives them an idea what a real > >> end-to-end transparent network *can* be like. Suddenly things that > >> never worked for them work. > > > As i said in my prior mail to this list (which went without any reply), > > most people nowadays wouldn't even know what it means to be directly on > > the internet without any firewall, and i really question whether it is > > prudent to ONLY have this option and NOT document it very clearly to > > We used to see those people, they were in the terminal room re-installing > windows 98. Those days are over. Firewalls have not prevents 14B a year of > damage from trojans, and they never will as long as the MIME Security > Considerations continues to be ignored. > > > all those users not working at the network level. I also think that > > folks who want to test if their applications work well and invested > > into ICE/STUN and other firewall traversal mechanisms (like RTCweb and > > other app groups), would maybe like to have something more reflective > > of relevant end-user access (with firewall). > > A $22 home router fixes that problem. > > >> If we are going to continue to make such investments, can we somehow > >> do so in a useful way? Can we collaborate with the hotel to make > >> changes that persist? This goes into returning to the same hotels > >> regularly, and *is* a mtgvenue discussion, not a netrqmts discussion. > > > I am already surprised how much the IETF noc team has been able to work > > with hotels existing AP and access-LAN infrastructure and make it work > > as good as possible. I do not always like the results (like in > > montreal), but lets not underestimate the complexity of the job of the > > noc doing this. > > I have been a NOC volunteer in decades past, and I've been involved in > pulling "Long Range Ethernet" into places... at 4m vertical/floor, and 100m > total for GbE over copper, the 30th floor of some hotels was a problem. > (Atlanta...) > We aren't having to do this anymore. > > >> I think that we should split up the discussion into perhaps four > >> areas. > >> > >> 1) the L2/WiFi coverage of the meeting rooms for IETF participants > >> > >> 2) the availability of IPv6 in the guest rooms [I don't mind captive > >> portals, *if* they follow our WG's specification...] > >> > >> 3) the availability and flexibility of the bandwidth in/out of the > >> conference hotel(s). > >> > >> 4) the architectural requirements for good IPv6 and good meetecho > >> experience within the venue. > > > Where would the discussion about what type of security options to > > offer/ document fit ? > > I'd put them in /dev/null. > I think that IETF participants are adults, and don't need this, and > I don't think the IETF should take on the liability of offering anything that > probably won't really help anyway. > > >> I think that the document tries to do this, but I don't get the > >> impression the discussion split things up. > >> > >> One could imagine a situation where the Meetecho network was a > >> different network from the Participant network. I'm not saying that's > >> a good plan, but I'm saying that I think that we should think about > >> whether we are expending a lot of effort in one area for reasons that > >> are relating to another area. > > > Not sure what other think to be meetecho problems. I only thoght the > > video quality from remote participants sucked but didn't get an answer > > whether thats because of unavoidable remote participant upstream limits > > or application level enforced uper bandwidth/quality limits. > > Meetecho gets wired infrastructure into each meeting room. > If not for that, if the hotel had decent Access Points, then we might not > have to wire the meeting rooms at all. If the hotel had large enough > capacity Internet, but perhaps too poor (bufferbloated) latency, we might be > able to get by providing an appropriate network for Meetecho only via other > means. > > I know that Meetecho is used at other conferences, and I assume that those > conferences do not bring the same kit that IETF brings, so I wonder what they > do there, and what problems we are avoiding. Meetecho is mostly used at other conferences for _streaming_ only, not for actual _remote participation_. I.e., no remote audio/video injection into the physical room, no virtual queue. RTC servers are not deployed on site. A good uplink bandwidth from the conference venue is still required. At IETF, Meetecho deploys remote participation servers at the meeting venue mainly for two reasons: 1. minimize the delay, which is critical to have remote participants participate to Q&A or give presentations; 2. feed them with audio+video from the meeting rooms via LAN, over a dedicated vLAN, so to not be affected by packet loss and external network conditions. Alessandro -- Alessandro Amirante, Ph.D. Meetecho S.r.l. www.meetecho.com
- [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Russ Housley
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Michael Richardson
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Michael Richardson
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Michael Richardson
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Alessandro Amirante
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Alessandro Amirante
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Michael Richardson
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Michael Richardson
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Karen O'Donoghue
- [Netrqmts] R: Re: IETF 105 Minutes Alessandro Amirante
- Re: [Netrqmts] R: Re: IETF 105 Minutes Michael Richardson
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Joe Clarke (jclarke)
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Michael Breuer
- Re: [Netrqmts] IETF 105 Minutes Toerless Eckert