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Re: [ntpwg] call for adoption (draft-dfranke-ntp-data-minimization)

Greg Dowd <Greg.Dowd@microsemi.com> Wed, 29 March 2017 15:38 UTC

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From: Greg Dowd <Greg.Dowd@microsemi.com>
To: Miroslav Lichvar <mlichvar@redhat.com>, Daniel Franke <dfoxfranke@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [ntpwg] call for adoption (draft-dfranke-ntp-data-minimization)
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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:37:18 +0000
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Subject: Re: [ntpwg] call for adoption (draft-dfranke-ntp-data-minimization)
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IIRC, there is a randomizer of a second or two attached to the calculation of the next poll in ntpd?


-----Original Message-----
From: ntpwg [mailto:ntpwg-bounces+gdowd=symmetricom.com@lists.ntp.org] On Behalf Of Miroslav Lichvar
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 2:41 AM
To: Daniel Franke <dfoxfranke@gmail.com>
Cc: ntpwg@lists.ntp.org
Subject: Re: [ntpwg] call for adoption (draft-dfranke-ntp-data-minimization)

EXTERNAL EMAIL


On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 04:50:42PM -0400, Daniel Franke wrote:
> Regardless of your opinion of OpenNTPD design choices, the facts 
> remain that it's in wide deployment and sets the precision field to 
> zero.  Those facts alone make it a good choice for standardization
> since:
>
> 1. Matching an existing implementation leads to one less opportunity 
> for fingerprinting.

I'm not sure how much that really helps. Even if other implementations sent packets looking exactly like those from openntpd, the timing of the packets would still be different. An observer can easily tell if it's openntpd, busybox (which is based on openntpd), ntpd, chrony, or something else, without actually looking at the values in the packets.

The fixed one-second timer in ntpd not only helps with fingerprinting the implementation, it can be also very useful for fingerprinting individual ntpd instances as they send requests at the same sub-second fraction.

A specification on how exactly should the timing for a given poll interval look like (e.g. its distribution and granularity) might help.
However, adjustments of the polling interval that clients normally do to adapt to the stability of the clock and network could still be useful for fingerprinting. Suggesting a constant polling interval for all NTP clients on the Internet would probably not be a good idea.

> 2. Existing widespread use of this value means we can be confident it 
> won't break anything.

32 is not as common as 0, but it is used too. Another large precision that I often see is 118. I've no idea where that comes from.

--
Miroslav Lichvar
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