Re: [nvo3] call for adoption: draft-lasserre-nvo3-framework-02 / section 4.2.2

> >> For an L2 NVE, the NVE needs to be able to determine MAC
> >> address(es) of the end-systems present on a VAP (typically
> >> dataplane-learning is relied upon for this purpose). For an L3 NVE,
> >> the NVE needs to be able to determine IP address(es) of the end-
> systems
> >> present on a VAP via a control plane. In the latter case, the data-
> plane learning is never involved.
> 
> This last sentence is not incorrect, but on the other hand if someone
> tomorrow would like to do consider doing dataplane learning for IP
> addresses, 

I hope it never happens ;-)

is it in the scope of the NVO3 framework document to say he
> should not ?
> 
> We can still hint that dataplane learning would be quite unexpected:
> 
>     In the latter case, data-plane learning is typically not involved.
> 

I would rather use: "In the latter case, data-plane learning should be not involved.
>
> 
> -Thomas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nvo3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:nvo3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> >> thomas.morin@orange.com
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 7:51 AM
> >> To: nvo3@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [nvo3] call for adoption: draft-lasserre-nvo3-
> framework-02
> >> / section 4.2.2
> >>
> >> Hello Maria, Dave, all,
> >>
> >> Here is a proposed rewrite of section 4.2.2 aiming at avoiding the
> >> "learning" term for L3 and take into account the fact that, even for
> >> L2,
> >> dataplane learning is just one option among many.
> >>
> >> ----
> >> 4.2.2 Determining addresses behind VAPs
> >>
> >>       For an L2 NVE, the NVE needs to be able to determine MAC
> >> address(es) of the end-systems present on a VAP (for instance,
> >> dataplane-learning may be relied upon for this purpose). For an L3
> NVE,
> >> the NVE needs to be able to determine IP address(es) of the end-
> systems
> >> present on a VAP.
> >>
> >>       In both cases, coordination with the NVE control protocol is
> >> needed
> >> such that when the NVE determines that the set of address(es) behind
> a
> >> VAP has changed, it triggers the local NVE control plane to
> distribute
> >> this information to its peers.
> >> ----
> >>
> >> Comments ?
> >>
> >> -Thomas
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Current text is :
> >>
> >> 4.2.2. Coordination between data plane and control plane
> >>
> >>       Often a combination of data plane and control based learning
> is
> >> necessary. Learning is applied towards end-user facing ports whereas
> >> distribution is used on the tunnel ports. Coordination between the
> >> learning engine and the control protocol is needed such
> >> that when a new address gets learned or an old address is removed,
> it
> >> triggers the local control plane to distribute this information to
> its
> >> peers.
> >>
> >>
> >> NAPIERALA, MARIA H a écrit :
> >>> Marc,
> >>   >
> >>   > Regarding the first paragraph, what about saying the following:
> >>   >
> >>   > "Data plane learning is applicable _only_ to L2 whereas control
> >> plane
> >>   > learning is applicable to both L2 and L3."
> >>   >
> >>   > I would remove the second sentence "Control plane learning does
> not
> >>   > require dynamic data plane learning" because it's a tautology.
> >>   >
> >>   > Also, it is still not clear whether you are assuming that a
> layer 2
> >>   > solution can be solely based on control plane updates.
> >>   >
> >>   > Maria
> >>   >
> >>   >
> >>   >> -----Original Message----- From: LASSERRE, MARC (MARC)
> >>   >> [mailto:marc.lasserre@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Monday, July
> 02,
> >>   >> 2012 12:29 PM To: NAPIERALA, MARIA H; Luyuan Fang (lufang);
> Pedro
> >>   >> Roque Marques; <david.black@emc.com> Cc: nvo3@ietf.org Subject:
> RE:
> >>   >> [nvo3] call for adoption: draft-lasserre-nvo3-framework-02
> >>   >>
> >>   >> Maria, all,
> >>   >>
> >>   >> I suggest adding the first sentence in section 4.2.1 (see
> below)
> >>   >> for clarification.
> >>   >>
> >>   >> 4.2.1. Data plane vs Control plane driven
> >>   >>
> >>   >> Data plane learning is applicable to L2 whereas control plane
> >>   >> learning is applicable to both L2 and L3. Control plane
> learning
> >>   >> does not require dynamic data plane learning.
> >>   >>
> >>   >> Data plane learning implies that flooding of unknown
> destinations
> >>   >> be supported and hence implies that broadcast and/or multicast
> be
> >>   >> supported. Multicasting in the core network for dynamic
> learning
> >>   >> may lead to significant scalability limitations. Specific
> >>   >> forwarding rules must be enforced to prevent loops from
> happening.
> >>   >> This can be achieved using a spanning tree, a shortest path
> tree,
> >>   >> or a split-horizon mesh.
> >>   >>
> >>   >> It should be noted that the amount of state to be distributed
> is a
> >>   >> function of the number of virtual machines. Different forms of
> >>   >> caching can also be utilized to minimize state distribution
> between
> >>   >> the various elements.
> >>   >>
> >>   >> -Marc
> >>   >>
> >>   >>> -----Original Message----- From: nvo3-bounces@ietf.org
> >>   >>> [mailto:nvo3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of NAPIERALA, MARIA H
> >>   >>> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 6:13 PM To: Luyuan Fang (lufang);
> >>   >>> LASSERRE, MARC (MARC); Pedro Roque Marques;
> >>   >>> <david.black@emc.com> Cc: nvo3@ietf.org Subject: Re: [nvo3]
> call
> >>   >>> for adoption: draft-lasserre-nvo3-framework-02
> >>   >>>
> >>   >>> Marc,
> >>   >>>
> >>   >>> Yes, this sentence is much more general and not excluding
> >>   >>> control-plane only solutions. You might clarify it more by
> >>   >>> stating that control plane only solutions with no data plane
> >>   >>> learning are also possible (as Luyuan suggested).
> >>   >>>
> >>   >>> Maria
> >>   >>>
> >>   >>>
> >>   >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Luyuan Fang (lufang)
> >>   >>>> [mailto:lufang@cisco.com] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 11:58
> AM
> >>   >>>> To: LASSERRE, MARC (MARC); NAPIERALA, MARIA H; Pedro Roque
> >>   >>>> Marques; <david.black@emc.com> Cc: nvo3@ietf.org Subject: RE:
> >>   >>>> [nvo3] call for adoption: draft-lasserre-nvo3-framework-02
> >>   >>>>
> >>   >>>> Marc,
> >>   >>>>
> >>   >>>> The sentence is correct, but I think you should clarify when
> >>   >>>> data planning learning is applicable, when it is not, e.g. if
> >>   >>>> all L3 solutions... Luyuan
> >>   >>>>
> >>   >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: nvo3-bounces@ietf.org
> >>   >>> [mailto:nvo3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >>   >>>> Of
> >>   >>>>> LASSERRE, MARC (MARC) Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 9:04 AM
> To:
> >>   >>>>> NAPIERALA, MARIA H; Pedro Roque Marques;
> >>   >> <david.black@emc.com>
> >>   >>>>> Cc: nvo3@ietf.org Subject: Re: [nvo3] call for adoption:
> >>   >>>>> draft-lasserre-nvo3-framework-
> >>   >>>> 02
> >>   >>>>>
> >>   >>>>> Maria,
> >>   >>>>>
> >>   >>>>> What about the following rewording?
> >>   >>>>>
> >>   >>>>> "A combination of data plane and control plane based
> >>   >>> learning may be
> >>   >>>>> applicable."
> >>   >>>>>
> >>   >>>>> Marc
> >>   >>>>>
> >>   >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: nvo3-bounces@ietf.org
> >>   >>>>>> [mailto:nvo3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of NAPIERALA,
> >>   >>>>>> MARIA H Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:18 AM To: Pedro
> >>   >>>>>> Roque Marques; <david.black@emc.com> Cc: nvo3@ietf.org
> >>   >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nvo3] call for adoption:
> >>   >>>>>> draft-lasserre-nvo3-framework-02
> >>   >>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>> As has been pointed out a number of times, pure data
> >>   >>>>>> plane learning
> >>   >>>>>>> leads
> >>   >>>>>>>> to a lot of BUM traffic flooding, so a combination of
> >>   >>>>>> data plane and
> >>   >>>>>>> control
> >>   >>>>>>>> plane can work better with existing systems and
> >>   >>>>>>>> improve
> >>   >>>>>> scalability.
> >>   >>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>> Data plane learning, l2 header transparency, bridging
> >>   >>>>>> interoperability
> >>   >>>>>>> are all very reasonable requirements for one type of
> >>   >>>>>> data-centers. But
> >>   >>>>>>> also an unacceptable burden for a different class of DC
> >>   >>>>>> designs. In my
> >>   >>>>>>> view you and Maria are just looking at different types
> >>   >>>>>>> of
> >>   >>>>>> DC designs.
> >>   >>>>>>> They are different problems.
> >>   >>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>> Precisely. And my comment was that the sentence in draft:
> >>   >>>>>> "Often a combination of data plane and control based
> >>   >>> learning is
> >>   >>>>>> necessary" seems to be assuming that pretty much all
> >>   >>> data centers
> >>   >>>>>> must use (some) data plane learning. I have suggested
> >>   >>> to clarify
> >>   >>>>>> it.
> >>   >>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>> Maria
> >>   >>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>> Pedro.
> >>   >>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>> Thanks, --David
> >>   >>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From:
> >>   >>>>>>>>> nvo3-bounces@ietf.org
> >>   >>> [mailto:nvo3-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >>   >>>>>>>>> Behalf
> >>   >>>>>>> Of
> >>   >>>>>>>>> NAPIERALA, MARIA H Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 2:14
> >>   >>>>>>>>> PM To: nvo3@ietf.org Subject: Re: [nvo3] call for
> >>   >>>>>>>>> adoption: draft-lasserre-
> >>   >> nvo3-
> >>   >>>>>>> framework-02
> >>   >>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>> A comment on section 4.2.2 "Coordination between
> >>   >>>>>>>>> data
> >>   >> plane
> >>   >>>> and
> >>   >>>>>>> control plane"
> >>   >>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>> "Often a combination of data plane and control based
> >>   >>>>>> learning is
> >>   >>>>>>>>> necessary."
> >>   >>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>> I think this statement is too strong since in a
> >>   >>>>>>>>> solution
> >>   >>>>>> proposed
> >>   >>>>>>>>> in
> >>   >>>>>>> draft-
> >>   >>>>>>>>> marques-l3vpn-end-system, for example, there is no
> >>   >>> data plane
> >>   >>>>>>> learning in a
> >>   >>>>>>>>> virtual network. Maybe it should be explain when
> >>   >>>>>>>>> such
> >>   >>>>>> combination
> >>   >>>>>>>>> is necessary.
> >>   >>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>> Maria
> >>   >>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> On 6/18/2012 11:51 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote:
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> Dear NVO3 Participants -
> >>   >>>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> This message begins a two week Call for Adoption
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> of http://tools.ietf.org/html/c-02 by the NVO3
> >>   >>> working group,
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> ending on 02-July-2012.
> >>   >>>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> Please respond to the NVO3 mailing list with any
> >>   >>> statements
> >>   >>>> of
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> approval or disapproval, along with any additional
> >>   >>>>>> comments that
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> might explain your position. Also, if any NVO3
> >>   >>> participant
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> is aware of IPR associated with this draft, please
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> inform
> >>   >>>>>> the mailing
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> list and/or the NVO3 chairs.
> >>   >>>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, -Benson& Matthew
> >>   >>>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>>>
> >>   >>>>>>>>>
> >>
> 
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