Re: [OAUTH-WG] WGLC for DPoP Document

[Denis <[e-mail]>]

  Justin,

> Denis,
>
> This is why the use of “iat” and “nonce” are recommended, to prevent 
> this kind of replay, and these are already discussed in the draft.
> Having a highly targeted request with narrow presentation window is 
> desirable in most cases, but some applications of DPoP do want to have 
> a pre-generated proof that can be re-used on multiple requests. In 
> this case, it becomes kind of bearer token in its own right, since 
> it’s not strictly tied to a single HTTP request. This isn’t an attack, 
> it’s an artifact of DPoP’s limited attachment to the HTTP message. If 
> a client pre-generates a generic proof and gives it to another client, 
> then that’s exactly the same as the client handing over its access 
> token (which it would also need to do).

The topic I am discussing has nothing to do with replay. The legitimate 
client gives away a token that it will never use.

> The proof and the token are credentials, by definition.

Well, the term "credentials" is being used with many different semantics 
in different documents. This is why I prefer not to use it.

> Subject identifiers within the token do not prevent this kind of 
> collusion, as has been previously discussed at length.

As it has been presented several times, this other technique provides a 
solution (only) in the context of long term user accounts,
but this is very common case.

> Nothing stops Alice from giving her token that says “This is Alice” to 
> Bob and having Bob use it.

Such scenario does not exist in the context of long term user accounts. 
However, it is important first to understand the concept
of long term user accounts.

> The RS will know it’s Alice’s token, but it’s still valid and Bob can 
> act as Alice.

When the AS delivers the access token, it includes into that access 
token an identifier that the client cannot choose which is 
representative of either Bob or Alice.

Alice cannot act on a long term user account that has been previously 
successfully opened by Bob, because she will get an identifier specific 
to herself.

On the contrary, when using DPoP, the sentence "/*not identified, not 
catch*/" applies.  Bob can sell such key bound tokens to an unlimited 
number of users.

> If Alice is over 18 then Bob will get access to the things that Alice 
> can get because she’s over 18.
> The call still works.
>
> Please stop pretending that adding a user identifier to the token 
> solves the problem you are describing, it simply does not.

I would agree that the scenario of mixing user identifiers to the token 
and giving away access tokens between collaborative clients
has not yet been fully explored. If you are willing to discuss long term 
user accounts in such a context, please open a different thread.

However, we should not mix topics since *this current thread is about 
DPoP*.

The key  point is not the existence of an alternative technique at the 
moment, but the fact that DPoP is currently giving *a false sense of 
security*.

Currently DPoP allows clients to monetize the selling of "key bound 
access tokens" to other end-users, and this should be advertised
in the Security Considerations section.

The next question is the following: being informed of that threat, will 
the community really use DPoP ? I let you answer that question.
However, if the community is not informed, it is more likely that it 
will use it. Ignoring the danger will not stop the threat.

Denis

>
>  — Justin
>
>> On Mar 29, 2022, at 11:39 AM, Denis <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi  Justin,
>>
>> In this scenario, the “legitimate” client _never_ gives away its 
>> secrets (if it is using a secure platform, it can't). It never give 
>> away its credentials either.
>>
>> When using key bound access tokens, a RS can't know whether the 
>> access token is presented by the “legitimate” client  or by 
>> an“illegitimate” client.
>>
>> One of the goals is also to prevent a client to monetize the selling 
>> of "key bound access tokens" to other end-users.
>>
>> As I have already indicated, there exists a solution able to prevent 
>> such scenario in some specific cases (i.e. in the case of RS 
>> long-term user accounts).
>>
>> Denis
>>
>>
>>> If the “legitimate” client willingly gives away its secrets and 
>>> tokens to the “illegitimate” client, then the latter isn’t actually 
>>> “illegitimate” anymore.
>>>
>>> What I was saying is that the “attack" is not even necessary if the 
>>> clients are in fact working together.
>>> If the “legitimate” client knowing gives away its credentials, it is 
>>> accepting that the receiver of those credentials can do anything it 
>>> wants with those credentials. That’s why they are credentials.
>>>
>>>  — Justin
>>>
>>> PS: I did not “break” the thread, I replied to a message in the 
>>> thread. That’s how email lists work.
>>>
>>>> On Mar 29, 2022, at 9:19 AM, Denis <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi  Justin,
>>>>
>>>> You broke the thread since you have not re-used the last message 
>>>> which was:
>>>>
>>>>     Steinar,
>>>>
>>>>     As you have guessed, no data (except the token and some crypto
>>>>     checksums) is passing through the clients.
>>>>
>>>>     Once the legitimate client has allowed the illegitimate client
>>>>     to use the token, the illegitimate client can do anything it
>>>>     wants with it.
>>>>     The legitimate client can be kept fully ignorant of what
>>>>     illegitimate client is doing.
>>>>
>>>>     The data flow is minimum: if the token allows to view a 4 Gb
>>>>     movie, that data flow does not flow between the clients.
>>>>
>>>>     Furthermore, the content of the token may allow the
>>>>     illegitimate client to use it during days or months.
>>>>     Suppose that the token indicates "over 18". If the user is over
>>>>     18 now, he will certainly be "over 18" the next days, months or
>>>>     years.
>>>>     There is no need to refresh the token as it would be the case
>>>>     if the token included a home address.
>>>>
>>>> This message explains why this collaborative attack is very 
>>>> different from simply forwarding messages between clients.
>>>>
>>>> The illegitimate client can do anything it wants without disclosing 
>>>> what it is doing to the legitimate client.
>>>> The traffic between the clients is kept to the very minimum.
>>>>
>>>> Denis
>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 29.03.22 um 15:10 schrieb Justin Richer:
>>>>>> And this is exactly the problem with the “collaborating clients” 
>>>>>> attack, as has been pointed out any number of times it’s been 
>>>>>> brought up before. If two clients are willingly collaborating in 
>>>>>> this way, they do not need to share any cryptographic material 
>>>>>> and impersonate each other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don’t need to steal my license if I’m willing to just go buy 
>>>>>> you beer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The DPoP draft does address signed request re-use, which some see 
>>>>>> as a feature to be carefully applied.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  — Justin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 28, 2022, at 1:04 PM, Steinar Noem <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting, but won't two collaborating clients just pass any 
>>>>>>> data they want to each other? Why would these collaborating 
>>>>>>> clients go through the trouble of exchanging private keys, dpop 
>>>>>>> proofs or tokens? Could you elaborate some more on the scenario?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> man. 28. mar. 2022 kl. 16:29 skrev Denis <[e-mail]>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Rifaat & Hannes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Hereafter are my comments:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The introduction states :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Recipients of such tokens are then able to verify the
>>>>>>>     binding of the token to the key pair thatthe client has
>>>>>>>     demonstrated
>>>>>>>            that it holds via the DPoP header, thereby providing
>>>>>>>     some assurance that the client presenting the token also
>>>>>>>     possesses the private key.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>            In other words, the legitimate presenter of the token
>>>>>>>     is constrained to be the sender that holds and can prove
>>>>>>>     possession of the private part of the key pair.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The client presenting the token *does not necessarily
>>>>>>>     possess the private key*. The client presenting the token
>>>>>>>     has been able to use
>>>>>>>     the results of some cryptographic functions using the
>>>>>>>     private part of the key pair.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     These results may be communicated by one client to another
>>>>>>>     client, if the two clients agree to collaborate. This
>>>>>>>     statement will be added later on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Proposed rewording:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>            Recipients of such tokens are then able to verify the
>>>>>>>     binding of the token to the key pair thatthe client has
>>>>>>>     demonstrated
>>>>>>>            that it holds via the DPoP header, thereby providing
>>>>>>>     some assurance that the client presenting the token *either
>>>>>>>     *also possesses
>>>>>>>            the private key *or* has been able to use the result
>>>>>>>     of cryptographic computations from another client that
>>>>>>>     possesses the private key.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>            In other words, the presenter of the token can prove
>>>>>>>     that it has been able to use the results of cryptographic
>>>>>>>     computations performed
>>>>>>>            by using the private part of the key pair.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The objectives states
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>            The primary aim of DPoP is to prevent unauthorized or
>>>>>>>     illegitimate parties from using leaked or stolen access tokens,
>>>>>>>            by binding a token to a public key upon issuance and
>>>>>>>     requiring that the client proves possession of the
>>>>>>>     corresponding
>>>>>>>            private key when using the token.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     DPoP does not prevent unauthorized or illegitimate parties
>>>>>>>     from using access tokens, as soon as two clients agree to
>>>>>>>     collaborate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Proposed rewording:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>            The primary aim of DPoP is to bind a token to a
>>>>>>>     public key upon issuance and requiring that the client
>>>>>>>     proves possession
>>>>>>>            of the corresponding private key when using the
>>>>>>>     token.This does not demonstrate that the client presenting
>>>>>>>     the token is
>>>>>>>            necessarily the legitimate client. In the case of
>>>>>>>     non-collaborating clients, DPoP prevents unauthorized or
>>>>>>>     illegitimate parties
>>>>>>>            from using leaked or stolen access tokens. In the
>>>>>>>     case of collaborating clients, the security of DPoP is
>>>>>>>     ineffective
>>>>>>>            (see section 11.X).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Section 11 is about "Security Considerations" and addresses
>>>>>>>     the following topics:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     11.1.DPoP Proof Replay
>>>>>>>     11.2.DPoP Proof Pre-Generation
>>>>>>>     11.3.DPoP Nonce Downgrade
>>>>>>>     11.4.Untrusted Code in the Client Context
>>>>>>>     11.5.Signed JWT Swapping
>>>>>>>     11.6.Signature Algorithms
>>>>>>>     11.7.Message Integrity
>>>>>>>     11.8.Access Token and Public Key Binding
>>>>>>>     11.9.Authorization Code and Public Key Binding
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The case of collaborative clients should be addressed within
>>>>>>>     section 11.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Text proposal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     11.X. Collaborative clients
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                 DPoP demonstrates that the client presenting the
>>>>>>>     token has been able to use the results of some cryptographic
>>>>>>>     functions
>>>>>>>     using the private part of the key pair.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     If a client agrees to collaborate with another client, the
>>>>>>>     security of DPoP is no longer effective.When two clients
>>>>>>>     agree to collaborate,
>>>>>>>     these results of the cryptographic computations performed by
>>>>>>>     one client may be communicated to another client.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Even if the private key used for DPoP is stored in such a
>>>>>>>     way that it cannot be exported, e.g., in a hardware or
>>>>>>>     software security module,
>>>>>>>     the client can perform all the cryptographic computations
>>>>>>>     needed by the other client to create DPoP proofs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The client can easily create new DPoP proofs as long as the
>>>>>>>     other client is online.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Note: There exist other techniques able to limit, in some
>>>>>>>     cases, the use of a token transmitted voluntarily by a
>>>>>>>     legitimate client
>>>>>>>                           to an illegitimate client.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Denis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     As discussed during the IETF meeting in *Vienna* last week,
>>>>>>>>     this is a *WG Last Call *for the *DPoP* document:
>>>>>>>>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-oauth-dpop/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Please, provide your feedback on the mailing list by April
>>>>>>>>     11th.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>      Rifaat & Hannes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>     OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>>     [e-mail]
>>>>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>     [e-mail]
>>>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Vennlig hilsen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steinar Noem
>>>>>>> Partner Udelt AS
>>>>>>> Systemutvikler
>>>>>>> | [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> | [e-mail]  | 
>>>>>>> [phone] | www.udelt.no <http://www.udelt.no/> |
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>> [e-mail]
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>> [e-mail]
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> https://danielfett.de
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>> [e-mail]
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>> [e-mail]
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OAuth mailing list
>> [e-mail]
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>