Re: [OPSAWG] WG LC: draft-ietf-opsawg-sap

Hi Tom,

> It still dives straight in using a SAP with no explanation. 

and

>  A sentence such as that needs to appear in the first
> paragraph of this I-D.  

Hmm...the first sentence of the document says the following: 

   From the perspective of a service provider, the Service Attachment
   Points (SAPs) are abstraction of the network reference points where
   network services can be delivered to customers.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How is this "vast" compared to what is in 8309? 

For the rest, the document says:

   This document assumes that the reader is familiar with the contents
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
   of [RFC6241], [RFC7950], [RFC8345], and [RFC8309].  The document uses                                             
                                           ^^^^^^^^
   terms from those documents.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm still puzzled what is not clear here. Really.

> And sentences such as
> " It can also be used to
>    retrieve where services, such as the Layer 3 VPN Network Model
> (L3NM)
>    [RFC9182], and the Layer 2 VPN Network Model (L2NM)
>    [I-D.ietf-opsawg-l2nm], are delivered to customers"
> I think plain wrong. 
 A data model of SAPs can be used to
> retrieve, but you cannot retrieve anything from the SAP per se
> (except the user data that the service is conveying!).

Med: I fail to follow the reasoning. The model allows to retrieve the reference points where a service delivered. There are plenty of examples in the appendix. 

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : OPSAWG <opsawg-bounces@ietf.org> De la part de tom petch
> Envoyé : jeudi 19 mai 2022 10:21
> À : Joe Clarke (jclarke) <jclarke@cisco.com>; Joe Clarke (jclarke)
> <jclarke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [OPSAWG] WG LC: draft-ietf-opsawg-sap
> 
> From: OPSAWG <opsawg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of tom petch
> <ietfc@btconnect.com>
> Sent: 18 May 2022 16:23
> From: Joe Clarke (jclarke) <jclarke@cisco.com>
> Sent: 18 May 2022 14:24
> 
> On 5/18/22 06:16, tom petch wrote:
> > From: OPSAWG <opsawg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Joe Clarke
> > (jclarke) <jclarke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > Sent: 17 May 2022 16:48
> >
> > I am closing the WG LC for this document.  The LC prompted some
> good
> > comments from DIR reviews and a comprehensive review from Adrian
> which
> > led to a TEAS cross-review.
> >
> > The biggest discussion came between Tom P and the WG/authors on
> the
> > definition of what a SAP is in the vein of this doc.   While
> some of his
> > suggestions have made it into the latest revision of the
> document, I
> > am not certain this discussion has been fully resolved.
> >
> > The last email I saw was
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/opsawg/D-
> z_rGqFl8V47fHlAkwSqiOxEDk/.
> > Is this resolved?
> >
> > <tp>
> > well, look at Mach Chen's Rtgdir review which. for me, covers
> the same ground and suggests that it is unresolved.  I am perhaps
> more familiar than Mach with the terminology of the various TEAS
> documents and so am not quite so puzzled as he is but would say we
> both share the same puzzlement.
> 
> The authors added some clarifying text to the definition of a SAP
> in the terminology section based on Mach's and your reviews.  It
> is a bit more descriptive (though I certainly would want
> Attachment Circuit called out as a term).  Have you reviewed -05
> to see if it addresses your concerns?
> 
> <tp>
> Not yet - I will have a look.
> 
> <tp2>
> No it does not address my concerns. I start with the Introduction
> and that has not changed (apart from clarifying NNI and UNI which
> I was ok with).
> 
> It still dives straight in using a SAP with no explanation.  I
> went back to RFC8309 and was struck by how clear, how well written
> that RFC is by comparison.  Simple things, like " A service in the
> context of this document (sometimes
>       called a Network Service) is some form of connectivity
> between
>       customer sites and the Internet or between customer sites
> across
>       the network operator's network and across the Internet"
> make a world of difference in narrowing the scope.  This I-D keeps
> referring to service without qualification which encompasses a
> vast range.  A sentence such as that needs to appear in the first
> paragraph of this I-D. I do not want to have to refer to
> definitions - I want to read the Introduction and know where this
> I-D is taking me  and this I-D fails that test.  If you do not
> qualify 'service' then Service Attachment Point (which has been in
> use for decades with a different meaning of the word 'service')
> cannot be defined.
> 
> And sentences such as
> " It can also be used to
>    retrieve where services, such as the Layer 3 VPN Network Model
> (L3NM)
>    [RFC9182], and the Layer 2 VPN Network Model (L2NM)
>    [I-D.ietf-opsawg-l2nm], are delivered to customers"
> I think plain wrong.  A data model of SAPs can be used to
> retrieve, but you cannot retrieve anything from the SAP per se
> (except the user data that the service is conveying!).
> 
> Tom Petch
> 
> Tom Petch
> 
> Joe
> 
> >
> > I was looking at another I-D by the author, draft-ietf-opsawg-
> l2nm, and was struck by the use of the term 'service' in that I-D
> which I again was unclear about the meaning of, but in that I-D.
> it is not such a barrier to my understanding.
> 
> 
> >
> > Tom Petch
> >
> > Based on that, we can take -05 forward to the IESG once we get a
> > shepherd.  But this point seems important to resolve.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > On 4/22/22 15:07, Joe Clarke (jclarke) wrote:
> >> Hello, Opsawg.  The last round of comments on this draft have
> been
> >> discussed/resolved, and we'd like to kick off a three-week WG
> LC for
> >> this work.  Please provide any and all feedback on list before
> the
> >> end of the day May 13, 2022.
> >>
> >> Authors, if you have suggestions for a good shepherd for this
> >> document, we'd love to hear them.
> >>
> >> I have requested reviews from Ops and Routing on this work.
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OPSAWG mailing list
> >> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OPSAWG mailing list
> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OPSAWG mailing list
> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >
> 
> 
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