Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC ondraft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management
"David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net> Wed, 04 February 2009 21:16 UTC
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From: David Harrington <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
To: 'Adrian Farrel' <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, opsawg@ietf.org
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Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 16:15:43 -0500
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Cc: 'David B Harrington' <dbharrington@comcast.net>, tseely5@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC ondraft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management
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Wow! Adrian wants me to do some work! Thanks for the thorough review. dbh > -----Original Message----- > From: opsawg-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:55 PM > To: opsawg@ietf.org > Cc: David B Harrington; tseely5@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC > ondraft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management > > Hi, > > Dan asked me to have a look at this which I do primarily with > a routing area > view on the world. > > I'm sorry that I haven't been following this I-D very closely > and apologise > if you have already discussed and reached conclusion on some > of the points I > make. > > I am largely supportive of this work (see > draft-ietf-pce-manageability-requirements-06.txt), but I do have some > issues. I would be comforted to know that the I-D had had > extensive review > from within the Ops Area without relying just on my comments! > > I would also like to understand how the recommendations parts > of the draft > will be interpreted by the Ops ADs as they perform IESG > review of I-Ds from > other areas. Depending on the answer (which I would like to > see encapsulated > in the document!) I might have other harsher comments about > the content. > > More details below. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > === > Title is... > Guidelines for Considering Operations and Management of New Protocols > ...but the Abstract immediately includes... > New protocols or protocol extensions > === > Obviously needs the new IPR boilerplate. > === > Abstract line 3 > s/protocol/protocols/ > === > I am somewhat worried by "recommend appropriate standard management > protocols ... to address the relevant operations and management > needs." > > I understand the theory behind this guidance in terms of making > equipment that will interwork with management systems, but I > question its practicality given the vast array of management > protocols available. And actually, I am not sure that this has a > direct impact on the success of or development of a protocol. > > The introduction says that this "is similar to a WG considering > which security threats are relevant to their protocol, and then > recommending appropriate standard security protocols to mitigate > the relevant threats." I dispute this. The security considerations > normally make modifications to the protocol under development to > make it secure, or mandate security features in other protocols > that the protocol under development uses. But where there is a > need for an external protocol, this is not usually mandated. For > example, where key exchange is needed the text will usually say > something like "may use some form of secure key exchange protocol > (such as the Internet Key Exchange protocol v2 (IKE) [RFC4306]." > This is far looser than a recommendation of a specific protocol. > > I believe that in practice operators want to go on using the > management protocols that they already have deployed. If, for > example, I have deployed routers that I manage using SNMP, I will > not want to deploy a new routing protocol on those routers if that > protocol is strongly recommended to be managed using TL1. > > Since data modeling is usually tied closely to the protocol used > for management, it follows from this that developing specific > data formats (SNMP MIB modules, XML schema, etc.) might also not > be so very practical. (Arguably we have found this out with MIB > modules over the last 10 years, but still churn them out.) > > What *would* be beneficial, however, is an abstract data model > for management of the protocol. There are many ways of > representing the data (XML, BNF, ASN.1, graphical representation, > etc.) and the Ops Area could usefully pick one and standardise > it. From there we would have a solid data set that all > implementations could make available and which separate documents > could easily map to suitable formats for use by specific > management protocols. Smart implementers would be able to support > multiple management protocols with ease. > > You do come to this to some extent in section 4.1, and the text > there seems to be at odds with what you have said in the > Introduction. > > === > Section 1 > > Can you expand "WG" on first usage? > > === > Section 1 > > We want to avoid seeming to impose a solution by putting in place a > strict terminology - for example implying that a formal data model, > or even using a management protocol is mandatory. > > <grin mode=wry> > > You want to avoid seeming to impose it? > So, you want to impose it, but you don't want anyone to notice? > > </grin> > > === > Section 1 > > Making a Management Considerations section a mandatory publication > requirement for IETF documents is the responsibility of > the IESG, or > specific area directors, or working groups, and this > document avoids > recommending any mandatory publication requirements. > > I think you may need to go a step further to get this through the > IESG. It would not be funny to see this paragraph as written, but > to get a DISCUSS on an I-D from an Ops AD because the I-D did not > contain a Management Considerations section. > > === > Introduction > > We provide some objective criteria to promote interoperability > > <grin mode=laconic> > > There seems to be only one author. Are you royalty? > Perhaps... "This document provides..." > > </grin> > > === > Section 1 final line > > s/??/?"/ > > === > > 2.1. IETF Management Framework > > For years the IETF has stressed the use of the IETF Standard > Management Framework and MIB modules [RFC2578] for managing new > protocols. The IETF designed these to permit multiple protocols to > utilize the MIB data [RFC1052], but it became a common > > s/became/is/ > > === > > 3.1. Operations Model > > o what are the typical user interfaces - Command line (CLI) or > graphical user interface (GUI)? > > I am not sure that this last item is particularly relevant for a > large number of the protocols designed in the IETF. We might say > that the question is valid for a protocol such as FTP, but is it > relevant for OSPF? Yes, there is a configuration interface to a > device that runs OSPF, but it is surely nothing to do with the > protocol design how that interface works. Indeed, you might > reduce the question to: are the configuration interfaces local or > remote? But I think you will find that the answer to the question > is "both" as in the subsequent paragraph. > > === > > 3.1. Operations Model > > Auto-configuration and default parameters might be > possible for some new protocols. > > I would make a much bigger noise about default parameters. There is > a key question about how the protocol can operate "out of the box". > If implementers are free to select their own defaults, the protocol > needs to operate well with any choice of values. If there are > sensible defaults, these need to be stated. > > Indeed, section 3.2 seems to say this. Perhaps a forward reference? > > === > > 3.1. Operations Model > > There may be a need to support a human interface, e.g., for > troubleshooting, and a programmatic interface, e.g., for automated > monitoring and root cause analysis. It might be important that the > internal method routines used by the application programming > interfaces and the human interfaces should be the same to > ensure that > data exchanged between these two interfaces is always consistent. > Mixing methods leads to inconsistency, so identifying consistent > methods of retrieving information is relevant. > > This is really sailing too close to the implementation. People > must be free to construct sub-standard and unmarketable > implementations. The IETF is not responsible for making all > implementations successful. The job is to make it possible for > all implementations to be successful given core competences in the > developers. > > I think the furthest a protocol spec RFC could go would be to say > what information must be available to an operator at a human > interface for troubleshooting > > === > > 3.2. Installation and Initial Setup > > In view of the reasons you give why defaults might become out- > dated, you might point out that sometimes it is not advisable to > have defaults. In these cases explicit configuration is required. > > === > > 3.2. Installation and Initial Setup > > Is the text at the top of page 8 supposed to be a bullet list? > > === > > 3.4. Requirements on Other Protocols and Functional Components > > These considerations should generally remain illustrative to avoid > creating restrictions or dependencies, or potentially impacting the > behavior of existing protocols, or restricting the extensibility of > other protocols, or assuming other protocols will not be > extended in > certain ways. > > Well, this is quite interesting. > > Suppose you decide to utilise a particular feature of a transport > protocol. You are creating a hard requirement that that feature is > implemented in all implementations of the set {your new protocol, > the transport protocol}. But more importantly, perhaps, you are > requiring that new versions of the transport protocol do not > deprecate the feature you require. > > In short, I don't think you should be too nervous about creating > restrictions or dependencies. If they exist, they must be stated. > > === > > 3.2. Installation and Initial Setup > > For example, the design of Resource ReSerVation Protocol (RSVP) > > I think this example is not well expressed. > > The problem in RSVP was that the IP packet was addressed to the > ultimate RSVP-capable destination, but the RSVP-capable routers > along the path needed to intercept and process the Path message. > This they could only do by "deep packet inspection" or by the > router alert option. > > I wonder whether this example adds significantly to the I-D. > > === > > 4. Management Considerations > > NETCONF addresses this in a generic manner by > > Add citation. > > === > > 4. Management Considerations > > However, debugging on-the-wire interactions is a protocol > issue: it is enormously helpful if a protocol has hooks to make > debugging of network interactions easy, and/or is designed > in such a > way that debugging protocol behaviors is easy. > Hand-waving this away > is not something that operators like ... > > I think you are including this by hand-waving! > What do you mean by "hooks"? > Surely any protocol can be debugged simply by sniffing it. > If you have specific hooks in mind you must set them out and not > leave the reader guessing. > But if you force the implementation I shall be peeved! > You might, for example, say that there should be alerts issued when > messages are received, or when there are state transitions in the > protocol state machine, but you must recall that: > - the messages can be seen by sniffing > - the state machine is not part of the protocol specification. > This latter point is key. The state machine explains how the > protocol works in order that an implementer can decide how to > react to a received event, but it does not require that the > machine is implemented. > > === > > 4.1. Interoperability > > Interoperability needs to be considered on the syntactic level and > the semantic level. While it can be irritating and time-consuming, > application designers including operators who write their > own scripts > can make their processing conditional to accommodate differences > > s/differences/syntactic differences/ ? > > Then, whether the counter is gathered via SNMP or a CLI > command or a SYSLOG message, the counter will have similar meaning. > > "similar"? I think that might not be good enough. Don't you need > "the same"? > > o [RFC3805] - Printer MIB v2 (contains both an IM and a DM > > Missing ")" > > === > > 4.2. Management Information > > I would find it really helpful if you were able to recommend a > language in which to write the information model. Ideally, all > IETF IMs would be in the same language. > > It is important to be able to separately fetch configuration data, > operational state data, and statistics from devices, and to be able > to compare current state to initial state, and to compare data > between devices. > > You seem to have drifted into DMs here. You cannot fetch data from > an IM. It simply explains what data elements exist. In fact, an IM > states all of the data that exists and so there is no confusion. > Confusion can only arise as the DM is constructed and multiple IM > data elements are conflated into single DM objects. > > === > > 4.3. Fault Management > > The protocol designer should document the basic faults and health > indicators that need to be instrumented for the new > protocol, and the > alarms and events that must be propagated to management > applications > or exposed through a data model. > > Isn't "propagated to management applications" a subset of "exposed > through a data model"? > > The protocol designer should consider how faults > information will be > > s/faults/fault/ > > Should the event reporting provide gyaranteed accurate delivery of > s/gyaranteed/guaranteed/ > > === > > 4.3.3. Fault Isolation > > It might be useful to isolate faults, such as a system that emits > malformed messages necessary to coordinate connections properly. > Spanning tree comes to mind. This might be able to be done by > configuring next-hop devices to drop the faulty messages to prevent > them from entering the rest of the network. > > This is not what *I* mean by fault isolation! > Fault isolation is about working out where in the network the fault > is. For example, if end-to-end data delivery is failing (reported by > a notification), fault isolation will find the failed link or node > in the end-to-end path. > > You seem to be describing the process of quarantining faulty > devices. This may also be valuable. > > "Spanning tree comes to mind" is a rather strange sentence without > much context. > > === > > 4.4. Configuration Management > > A protocol desoigners should document what the basic configuration > > s/desoigners/designers/ > > "Requirements for Configuration Management of IP-based Networks" > [RFC3139] discusses requirements for configuration management. > More precisely, > "Requirements for Configuration Management of IP-based Networks" > [RFC3139] discusses requirements for configuration management of > IP-based networks. > Which makes me wonder about the purpose of the sentence :-) > > This document includes... > This document or that document? > > A number of efforts have existed in the IETF to develop > policy-based > management. "Terminology for Policy-Based Management" > [RFC3198] was > written to standardize the terminology across these > efforts. Some of > the efforts resulted in proposals that are NOT RECOMMENDED, so a > protocol designer should check the current recommendation status > before depending on a specific protocol suggestion. > > You have used RFC2119 language, but in section 1.1 you said > This document deliberately does not use the (capitalized) keywords > described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119]. > Furthermore, it is not clear to me whether this I-D is doing the > NOT RECOMMENDing or whether some other RFC has done it. If it is > this I-D, you will need to give reasons. If is some other RFC, you > will need to give references. > > It is highly desirable that text processing tools such as diff, and > version management tools such as RCS or CVS or SVN, can be used to > process configurations. This approach simplifies comparing the > current operational state to the initial configuration. It is > commonplace to compare configuration changes to e.g., last > day, last > week, last month, etc. -- having configuration in a text, > and human- > understandable format is very valuable for various reasons such as > change control (or verification), configuration consistency checks, > etc. > > Yes, but what has this to do with the protocol design? It might be > related to device implementation. Or it might be relevant to > EMS/NMS implementation. > > As you note in the subsequent paragraph, this may be impossible > even in some text-based DMs. It would certainly be impossible in > an SNMP MIB module. > > To simplify such configuration comparisons, devices should not > arbitrarily reorder data such as access control lists. If > a protocol > designer defines mechanisms for configuration, it would be > desirable > to standardize the order of elements for consistency of > configuration > and of reporting across vendors, and across releases from vendors. > > This example seems a bit specific. And in any case, it is perfectly > possible to sort a list before comparing. > > There are two parts to this: 1. An NMS system could optimize ACLs > for performance reasons 2. Unless the device/NMS systems > has correct > rules/a lot of experience, reordering ACLs can lead to a huge > security issue. > > Maybe what you are saying is: > Implementations should not arbitrarily modify configuration data. > In some cases (such as Access Control Lists) the order of data > items is significant and comprises part of the configured data. > > Network wide configurations are ideally stored in central master > databases > > This looks like an unsubstantiated assertion. You might get away > with "Many operators prefer that..." > > It is important to distinguish between the distribution of > configurations and the activation of a certain configuration. > Devices should be able to hold multiple configurations. > > This is really an implementation issue and nothing to do with the > protocol under design. > > Consensus of the 2002 IAB Workshop was that textual configuration > files should be able to contain international characters. > > Do you have a citation? > > These timers may need default values > suggested in the protocol specification and do not need to be > otherwise configurable. > > I had formed the opinion that timers must be given default values > in IETF protocol specifications, but I can't lay my hands on a > reference. > > === > > 4.5. Accounting Management > > A protocol designer should consider whether it would be appropriate > to collect usage information related to this protocol, and if so, > what usage information would be appropriate to collect? > > s/collect?/collect./ > > "Introduction to Accounting Management" [RFC2975] > discusses a number > of factors relevant to monitoring usage of protocols for > purposes of > capacity and trend analysis, cost allocation, auditing, > and billing. > This document also discusses how Remote Authentication Dial In User > This or that? > > Service (RADIUS) [RFC2865], Terminal Access Controller > Access Control > System (TACACS) [RFC1492], SNMP, IPFIX, and Packet Sampling (PSAMP) > Protocol [I-D.ietf-psamp-protocol] protocols can be used for these > purposes. > > Surely RFC 2975 does not mention PSAMP? Which makes me wonder what > you are trying to achieve with a list of example protocols. Are > they intended as recommendations (in which case say so and why), > or as a non-exclusive list (in which case a "such as" would be > useful). At the moment it reads like these are your favorites and > you would be upset if someone used a different protocol! > > === > > 4.6. Performance Management > > There are several parts to performance management to be considered: > protocol monitoring, services monitoring, and device > monitoring (the > impact of the new protocol/service activation on the device). > > s/services/service/ > > Consider scalability, such as whether performance will be > affected by > the number of protocol connections. > > Maybe say "protocol entities" rather than connections? > > > This section seems to flit between the performance of the protocol > under design and the network running the protocol under design, and > the performance of the management of the protocol. Each is > important, but it may be constructive to split them out into > separate sections. The latter will also include a consideration of > how the act of monitoring impacts on network performance. > > > The Benchmarking Methodology WG (bmwg) has defined recommendations > Later you have BMWG. > > === > > 4.7. Security Management > > It must be possible to do consistency checks of access > control lists > across devices. Protocol designers should consider information > models to promote comparisons across devices and across vendors to > permit checking the consistency of security configurations. > > I think this "must" is massively excessive! > I would expect each router to have a different access list in the > control plane (a list of its neighbors). Such a mechanism would > actually open up a security vulnerability that has to be protected. > Perhaps you are talking about management plane access lists. This > takes us into the area of securing management activity - see my > comments on Section 7. > > RADIUS and DIAMETER can provide authentication and > authorization. A > protocol designer should consider which attributes would be > appropriate for their protocol. > > This paragraph is apropos of what? What are you trying to tell me? > Should I run my management using Radius? Should I try to build > Diameter into my new protocol? > > Different protocols use different assumptions about > message security > s/protocols/management protocols/ > > and data access controls. A protocol designer that > recommends using > different protocols should consider how security will be > applied in a > s/protocols/management protocols/ > > > Although you talk about (presumably management) access lists, I think > I would have expected a discussion of authority levels and policy > with regard to management tasks. > > === > > 7. Security Considerations > > This document is informational and provides guidelines for > considering manageability and operations. It introduces no new > security concerns. > > I think that, although you introduce no new security concerns > directly, you have some things to talk about. > > Firstly, the provision of a management portal to a network device > provides a doorway through which an attack on the device may be > launched. Since you are recommending that the protocol under > development be manageable through the management protocol, you are > requiring that the protocol be vulnerable to a new source of > attacks. Therefore, you must talk about securing the protocol > against these attacks. This might be as simple as saying that only > management protocols with adequate (for some definition of > adequate) security apparatus be used. > > I think it is also of note that a standard description of the > manageable knobs and whistles on a protocol makes it easier for an > attacker to understand what they may try to control and how to > tweak it. > > On the other hand, it would be well worth pointing out that a > well-designed protocol is usually more stable and secure. And that > a protocol that can be managed and inspected offers the operator > a better chance of spotting and quarantining any attacks. > Conversely making a protocol inspectable, is a risk if the wrong > person inspects it! > > If security events cause logs and or notifications/alerts, can > a concerted attack be mounted by causing an excess of these > events? In other words, to the security management mechanisms > constitute the security vulnerability? > > Lastly, the management of security aspects is important, and you > can just reference back to section 4.7. > > === > > 9. Informative References > > I (of course) would favor an informational reference to > draft-ietf-pce- > manageability-requirements-06.txt > > === > > [RFC2821] Klensin, J., "Simple Mail Transfer > Protocol", RFC 2821, April 2001. > > I think this has been obsoleted. > > === > > Appendix A. Operations and Management Review Checklist > > Maybe a forward reference to this appendix from sections 1 and 5? > > === > > A.3. Documentation > > Does the proposed protocol have a significant operational impact on > the Internet. If it does, and the document under review targets > standards track, is their enough proof of implementation and/or > operational experience to grant Proposed Standard status? > > Whoah! > > You are going to use this I-D to try to block standards track I-Ds > from becoming RFCs? You are going to get into such a fight!!! > > IMHO this sentence is a complete show-stopper in your I-D. > > (Oh, and s/their/there/) > > === > > Appendix B. Change Log > > Suggest you flag this for removal upon publication as an RFC. > > === > > > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 6:40 PM > > To: opsawg@ietf.org > > Subject: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC on > > draft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management > > > > This is a (hopefully final) WGLC for > > draft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management > > there was not enough respose to the last one back in October > > please let the list know what you think of the draft > > _______________________________________________ > OPSAWG mailing list > OPSAWG@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg >
- [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC on draft-ietf-opsawg-operat… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC on draft-ietf-opsawg-op… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC on draft-ietf-opsawg-op… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC on draft-ietf-opsawg-op… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC on draft-ietf-opsawg-op… Bert Wijnen (IETF)
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC on draft-ietf-opsawg-op… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC ondraft-ietf-opsawg-ope… David Harrington
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC on draft-ietf-opsawg-op… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLC ondraft-ietf-opsawg-ope… tom.petch
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-oper… David Harrington
- [OPSAWG] FW: (final) WGLC on draft-ietf-opsawg-op… David B Harrington
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-oper… tom.petch
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-oper… David B Harrington
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLCon draft-ietf-opsawg-ope… David Harrington
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCon draft-ietf-opsawg-oper… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCon draft-ietf-opsawg-oper… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCon draft-ietf-opsawg-oper… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCon draft-ietf-opsawg-oper… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… David Harrington
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final) WGLCon draft-ietf-opsawg-ope… David Harrington
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… tom.petch
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [OPSAWG] (final)WGLCondraft-ietf-opsawg-opera… tom.petch
- [OPSAWG] In-band OAM Natale, Bob
- Re: [OPSAWG] In-band OAM Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [OPSAWG] In-band OAM tom.petch
- Re: [OPSAWG] In-band OAM Phil Shafer
- Re: [OPSAWG] In-band OAM Natale, Bob
- Re: [OPSAWG] In-band OAM tom.petch
- Re: [OPSAWG] In-band OAM David Harrington