Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com> Mon, 07 October 2013 18:32 UTC
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 11:32:44 -0700
To: Parthasarathi R <partha@parthasarathi.co.in>
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Cc: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, "pntaw@ietf.org" <pntaw@ietf.org>, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
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As you point out, in most cases ICE-TCP will not avoid use of TURN, so we are only talking about a modest efficiency gain for ICE-TCP and RTP over TCP, but a substantial increase in complexity. Running SCTP over TCP is undesirable because the congestion control in SCTP and TCP will interact poorly with each other. > On Oct 7, 2013, at 11:07 AM, "Parthasarathi R" <partha@parthasarathi.co.in> wrote: > > Hi all, > > RTP over TCP is unavoidable in case of RTCWeb media traffic has to traverse > through UDP blocking firewalls. TCP candidates with ICE (RFC 6544) may fail > due to the current OS implementation wherein TCP simultaneous Open will not > work. > > I have concern w.r.t TURN server as it introduces one extra network element > for RTCWeb session establishment. The current argument favoring for TURN > server is that RTP over TCP is required only till TURN server whereas the > media traffic between TURN server and the destination is UDP. In couple of > WebRTC deployment in Service provider network and Enterprise network, TURN > server will exist near to the destination and the WebRTC media traffic in > the internet is "RTP over TCP". I guess that Victor scenario falls under the > same category. In these deployment, RTP over TCP has advantage over TURN > over TCP as the extra element shall be avoided. > > Also, SCTP over DTLS over UDP will not work in case of RTCWeb media traffic > has to traverse through UDP blocking firewalls. So, there is a need of SCTP > over DTLS over TCP or multipath TCP kind of transport to meet this > requirement which needs separate discussion. > > Thanks > Partha > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >> Of Dan Wing >> Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 1:47 AM >> To: Harald Alvestrand >> Cc: Bernard Aboba; pntaw@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP >> >> >> On Sep 3, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> >> wrote: >> >>> On 09/03/2013 07:25 PM, Dan Wing wrote: >>>>> Multiple TCP connections seems like a suboptimal design, given the >> existence of other solutions like Minion or SCTP. >>>> Sure. But those technologies weren't on the table when Victor did >> interactive audio/video over TCP, I'm sure. Much like they weren't on >> the table when HTTP started doing multiple TCP connections back in the >> early days of Netscape. >>> >>> Victor didn't provide a date, so I was thinking "recently" - SCTP is >> 10 years old at this point. >> >> SCTP has been around a long time as a protocol but for a variety of >> reasons has seen no deployment on the Internet to date, including no >> availability in the mainstream OSs which is everyone's interest. SCTP- >> over-UDP was only recently defined and its user-mode release was only >> 12 or 18 months ago or so. >> >>> Minion is newer than that, of course. >>>> >>>>> If both sides have TURN over TCP (or TURN over HTTP) enabled, and >> their respective TURN servers can talk UDP to each other, communication >> will occur, I think. I don't think we need to add TCP candidates for >> the TURN case in order to bypass firewalls. >>>>> >>>>> We might want to do so for the benefit of the pure peer-to-peer >> case, but I'm not sure it's a case that's important enough to make 6062 >> (TURN TCP allocations) or 6544 (ICE TCP allocations, no TURN server) >> into MUSTs for RTCWEB. >>>> I agree. Additionally, before anyone ventures too far down that >> path it would be useful to understand how well the expected RTCWeb >> endpoints could do peer-to-peer TCP connections. Reliable peer-to-peer >> TCP needs TCP simultaneous open needs to work well on both hosts, per >> the research by Saikat Guha and Paul Francis >> http://conferences.sigcomm.org/imc/2005/papers/imc05efiles/guha/guha.pd >> f. In that research, they found Windows XP SP1 doesn't do simultaneous >> open well, but Windows XP with SP2 and SP3 and Linux worked okay. I >> have not seen similar research for Android, OS X, or Windows 7 or >> Windows 8. >>> Indeed; that article seemed to indicate that the brand of NAT you >> bought was a decisive factor - it would be interesting to see if the >> state of the art has become more or less symmetric-TCP hostile in the >> intervening 8 years. >> >> -d >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pntaw mailing list >> pntaw@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw > > _______________________________________________ > pntaw mailing list > pntaw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw
- [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Simon Perreault
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ted Hardie
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti