Re: [Ppm] Fwd: Next steps for heavy hitters with VDAFs
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Mon, 04 March 2024 20:03 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2024 12:02:09 -0800
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To: Simon Friedberger <simon@mozilla.com>
Cc: Brandon Pitman <bran=40divviup.org@dmarc.ietf.org>, Christopher Patton <cpatton=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, ppm <ppm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ppm] Fwd: Next steps for heavy hitters with VDAFs
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On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 11:14 AM Simon Friedberger <simon@mozilla.com> wrote: > I am, of course, in favor of reducing complexity, however I am weakly > against dropping it. My main concerns are: > > 1. The texts are written and the protocols are implemented. We can > reduce the complexity but we would also be throwing away a lot of effort > which already went into this. > 2. We don't really know how Poplar and Mastic compare. 50% report size > overhead would be quite a lot given the scale that these things are > designed for. I think we should do some benchmarking before making this > decision. > 3. Similarly, we don't have a good grasp on what we can do with VDAFs > and DAP and how much power we would lose by reducing preparation to one > round. Is Prio+ better for some use-cases? We certainly could do much more > powerful MPC with multiple rounds. > > We should leave the standards as is until we have better evidence to > support a decision. > If implementations want to remove the code they can always do so anyway. > I agree with Simon. I would also note that this is not really a decision for CFRG, whose job, at some level, is to deliver what the IETF needs. I see PPM is CCed on this e-mail, so I'd encourage there to be a discussion in the PPM meeting -Ekr > > So, I'm with Tim. > > MfG, > Simon > > > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 6:36 PM Brandon Pitman <bran= > 40divviup.org@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> As a DAP implementor, I am in favor of simplifying DAP/VDAF as much as >> possible. With that in mind, I am in favor of removing Poplar1 in favor of >> Mastic (i.e. any of outcomes #1, #2, or #4 -- I am agnostic on which of >> these is the better course, but I suppose #2 is likely to require the least >> amount of editorial work, though it might be useful to maintain one or >> multiple concrete VDAFs in the VDAF draft itself). I do not see a reason to >> maintain two VDAFs which solve roughly the same problem if one of them is >> superior to the other, and I agree that lowered round complexity is a >> compelling argument for Mastic. If we can conclude that Mastic is >> practically superior to Poplar1, IMO we should remove Poplar1. >> >> Also: >> > c. If we remove Poplar1, then we could consider restricting the VDAF >> syntax to 1 round for preparation. >> >> I agree; the DAP specification & DAP implementations would be >> considerably simplified if we were to restrict to 1-round VDAFs. There is >> quite a bit of state-tracking complexity involved in multi-round VDAF >> handling which could be dropped entirely in a single-round world. Unless >> there is a concrete multi-round VDAF providing a great deal of value to the >> DAP/VDAF ecosystem, I think this would be a very worthwhile change. If >> restricting VDAF to a single round is considered controversial, another >> option would be to restrict DAP to single-round VDAFs instead. >> >> Thanks, >> Brandon >> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 8:14 AM Christopher Patton <cpatton= >> 40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, I'm cross-posting this message to the CFRG mailing list in the >>> hopes that folks who would like to implement heavy hitters in DAP will >>> weigh in. We definitely end to hear from implementers and potential >>> adopters. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Chris P. >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>> From: Christopher Patton <cpatton@cloudflare.com> >>> Date: Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 8:07 AM >>> Subject: Next steps for heavy hitters with VDAFs >>> To: CFRG <cfrg@irtf.org> >>> >>> >>> Hi CFRG, >>> >>> I've asked the chairs to spend some time at 119 discussing next steps >>> for Mastic: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mouris-cfrg-mastic-02 >>> >>> The ideal outcome may not be to adopt this draft directly, but to merge >>> it with the existing VDAF draft (draft-irtf-cfrg-vdaf). Our goal for >>> 119 is to find consensus on a path forward. >>> >>> Last time (118) we presented Mastic, a new VDAF that we pitched as a >>> drop-in replacement for Poplar1 ( >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/118/materials/slides-118-cfrg-mastic-vdaf). >>> Since the meeting we have been working on security analysis for Mastic. >>> The theorems in this paper claim that Mastic's composition of its >>> primitives (VIDPF, an extension of IDPF from draft-irtf-cfrg-vdaf) and >>> FLP (from draft-irtf-cfrg-vdaf) into a VDAF is secure. The concrete >>> parameters of VIDPF and FLP are subject to change as analysis continues, >>> but the overall composition seems to be sound: >>> https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/221 >>> >>> Mastic is also more efficient in terms of round complexity, is easier to >>> implement securely, and addresses use cases identified in the PPM WG for >>> which Poplar1 falls short. Overall, Mastic reflects improvements that have >>> been made to this paradigm (i.e., function secret sharing for heavy >>> hitters) since the Poplar paper appeared three years ago ( >>> https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/017). The only potential advantage of >>> Poplar1 is that, once we finalize the parameters of VIDPF, it may end up >>> having a lower bandwidth cost (at most 50% more, I suspect). However, >>> speaking as an implementer, the lower round complexity of Mastic over >>> Poplar1 makes it the far better option. >>> >>> We (the Mastic designers) would like the CFRG to consider the following >>> outcomes: >>> 1. Replace Poplar1 with Mastic in the base VDAF draft (draft-irtf-cfrg >>> -vdaf). >>> 2. Adopt the Mastic draft (draft-mourics-cfrg-mastic) and remove >>> Poplar1 from the base draft. >>> 3. Adopt the Mastic draft, but keep Poplar1 in the base draft. >>> 4. Refactor the base draft so that it spells only the VDAF framework, >>> adopt the Mastic draft, and adopt a new draft for Prio3. Note that there is >>> one primitive (FLP) that would be shared by both Mastic and Prio3. >>> >>> Here are the main considerations we've heard while getting feedback on >>> this question. >>> a. Since the PPM WG can't finish its work until the base VDAF draft is >>> done, we should do everything we can to minimize time to RFC. >>> b. Recommending two protocols (Poplar1 and Mastic) for the same use case >>> (heavy hitters) is probably not a good idea, especially if one is clearly >>> superior to the other. >>> c. If we remove Poplar1, then we could consider restricting the VDAF >>> syntax to 1 round for preparation. >>> d. The base draft should use all features of the VDAF framework. >>> e. Poplar1 involves an MPC paradigm called "arithmetic sketching" ( >>> https://eprint.iacr.org/2023/1012) that may be useful for future VDAFs >>> and thus worth specifying. >>> >>> Thanks for your time and we're looking forward to 119, >>> Chris P. >>> -- >>> Ppm mailing list >>> Ppm@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppm >>> >> -- >> Ppm mailing list >> Ppm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppm >> > -- > Ppm mailing list > Ppm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppm >
- [Ppm] Fwd: Next steps for heavy hitters with VDAFs Christopher Patton
- Re: [Ppm] Fwd: Next steps for heavy hitters with … Brandon Pitman
- Re: [Ppm] Fwd: Next steps for heavy hitters with … Simon Friedberger
- Re: [Ppm] Fwd: Next steps for heavy hitters with … Syed Suleman Ahmad
- Re: [Ppm] Fwd: Next steps for heavy hitters with … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Ppm] Fwd: Next steps for heavy hitters with … Christopher Patton
- Re: [Ppm] Next steps for heavy hitters with VDAFs Shan Wang
- Re: [Ppm] Next steps for heavy hitters with VDAFs Christopher Patton
- Re: [Ppm] [CFRG] Next steps for heavy hitters wit… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Ppm] [CFRG] Next steps for heavy hitters wit… Christopher Patton
- Re: [Ppm] [CFRG] Next steps for heavy hitters wit… Christopher Patton