IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: Should the specifications hard-refer to UDP?

Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> Tue, 18 August 2020 19:10 UTC

Return-Path: <prvs=54998b852b=fenix@fb.com>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7970B3A0A41 for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 12:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fb.com header.b=fVGqAJ9g; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fb.onmicrosoft.com header.b=EloSN3SI
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cSWJGR5DVPSG for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx0b-00082601.pphosted.com (mx0b-00082601.pphosted.com [67.231.153.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B02E3A0A3F for <quic@ietf.org>; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0109332.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00082601.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 07IJ9vuE012954; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 12:09:58 -0700
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fb.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=facebook; bh=tvlbmwIEhFKoCIZbKtFTYRD1OIj8KVpR7jInAQFqDnE=; b=fVGqAJ9g9Yd+qM+Y++D02ULFayiDm4ZhE/SPjRVMo+nKadK/Y5WlFS1JC6su4lW4BPTA /iJDvWQzqXtHM7U3EXzYH0dcuh2pEUW8u+rAoFJWC4gxc/scX8oKCT/u2DfKXyTHoMSq qwAC25M/Mnh5Q17TxlPACcr7m4efW6vdBs4=
Received: from maileast.thefacebook.com ([163.114.130.16]) by mx0a-00082601.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3304nxmf1y-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 18 Aug 2020 12:09:57 -0700
Received: from NAM11-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (100.104.31.183) by o365-in.thefacebook.com (100.104.36.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1979.3; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 12:09:34 -0700
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=UalJwM/2ncnKXi3qTkrxlIrxbITxmzqXlGjlCxH0mBvr/mcOVD1YrBmiHJopPpisWjI1hP1pBmJIn1ZLQZ030+vyBkh0b9qRsPxysMNzS/qEJHDduUDgU+42+vpTKblS2pv5Q3xyBjxqQwr7g9FeTk/+h1VeP6AQd7AFNJ9ugX8z6Af67BUk+jI559vdYzeMPMUYxG30gAq2grNVpWKnTQrQ/JcmACM0qAW8viu5szq85PTLVcyGElbZVpKj/9feg0bRZe/e1gG3HplhMUKwaQZesY4+lT8rXQi4HnQjsEtv/qQyFewPyHV/J2GQ8YpVvyNGrOj14WMViufHwhvkNg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=tvlbmwIEhFKoCIZbKtFTYRD1OIj8KVpR7jInAQFqDnE=; b=idy34zCwG3vAAi5J/pNs67is1kXIVzsG8Pz/7I6aZONRmINAfVHraUypwssbellUkejmDltV1u/w4qf1hOboaojvDMgllYxYislAtNaB19wsy32dgN34JFVDDkIiTXtadb+cFXVNvZPe+hcHmffyKQWpxhMAtZIlBzI9FL86kXL3ohJzWvCYrX1Yhw0QgHWj1PoobysWiIgR4WcAot4VbJwFO++O3Su6HthV7UGT3Eu/yJWgeAawyHfh5cRfAO/9M78eiXV5vWggiyXjhMCQThLUP0P3Zix2fWQCEd68xwirZe6h1tEqVp+6vhzKThVWs9Ms6D/bi7YHCyqJCilc1A==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=fb.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=fb.com; dkim=pass header.d=fb.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fb.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-fb-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=tvlbmwIEhFKoCIZbKtFTYRD1OIj8KVpR7jInAQFqDnE=; b=EloSN3SIdS19DzXm7g72mA32rYLPWyQr3/z7tpAL/IvAMU0QI7rltv5MBTPjYTqdaaQbApObJWO/kCrNE2UXm4eSc5ZbywaXMp+OIZ0qyUFq9ca/2M882aFjHDmnbXt8yoUu7s7e88O5xsQKd0MdnkYHzOEvSrhTikQ6LbDEhgQ=
Received: from BYAPR15MB4104.namprd15.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a02:c8::14) by BYAPR15MB2470.namprd15.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a02:81::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3283.18; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:09:33 +0000
Received: from BYAPR15MB4104.namprd15.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2c66:bf0b:5a49:5c2b]) by BYAPR15MB4104.namprd15.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2c66:bf0b:5a49:5c2b%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3283.028; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:09:33 +0000
From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Should the specifications hard-refer to UDP?
Thread-Topic: Should the specifications hard-refer to UDP?
Thread-Index: AQHWdRJzOVI+qjfXn0+/5P5sW04LTak9SCWAgABf5wCAAC4LAIAAQHSA//+wLAA=
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:09:33 +0000
Message-ID: <F065162A-A756-4FB3-85DE-0C7E0C49D8FF@fb.com>
References: <1ce1b329-78c0-42c4-aec7-db19b74742eb@www.fastmail.com> <2bac14c6-a543-454f-a0f3-d77258c2428b@www.fastmail.com> <CALGR9oa1y59huKSx+AY3OnMveN1Bm2xChZ=cbgaw+7jxvxQG5A@mail.gmail.com> <CAKcm_gMQz5NR=ZjD4CfTTFZRdXv5762j0DXBc5AMLJ7cb+Q2yw@mail.gmail.com> <e3009e61-322b-2feb-85b2-07a2b749cf70@huitema.net>
In-Reply-To: <e3009e61-322b-2feb-85b2-07a2b749cf70@huitema.net>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.39.20071300
authentication-results: huitema.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;huitema.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=fb.com;
x-originating-ip: [2620:10d:c090:400::5:4742]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: db04a914-bddd-4a26-8b4f-08d843aa3dd0
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR15MB2470:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BYAPR15MB247006E580E4D7DBC031A207CD5C0@BYAPR15MB2470.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
x-fb-source: Internal
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: eF0d0DHEC3op9FkSizXuTXcjlFlvwhePh6Ap/cDB+zqvZBMvkgx7/Fj19sVCeFzN5WdwEytvtE+S+cQ8r96qnF3uCYe3vkEJ2GXExROyToVloZz7ZuB0z3z4xfBF/tc1DIHNVDRE9VMKzY61hOT11wedPoYfVXwb2ES2pRcf6DfxgQRtomFN+72RYLy+2qynagmpfq0xw/QUKo8zDRQeVTeOFvbMBSh3epieJX5vj8gLHlgRBL2WlGYyfaH7gAI6JTV9jWHTpkCR67Wkk6WVLLm4gq9q1bmu49GkleQvGOSxVKRhmdBxYwi5UBA8BFjL
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR15MB4104.namprd15.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(136003)(396003)(366004)(39860400002)(346002)(376002)(33656002)(53546011)(6512007)(186003)(66446008)(5660300002)(66556008)(64756008)(86362001)(66476007)(36756003)(110136005)(8936002)(66946007)(2906002)(71200400001)(83380400001)(76116006)(8676002)(2616005)(6486002)(478600001)(4326008)(316002)(6506007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: yh3Nb5KaviO/ZttzUNcYT2dZjXakjK1zip19Kr9EDPdwu/kPWljfgjZ7ZIYZ5IUjyZrdeeVILLKZGGh8WLNzCghjbl4AUY+vdmMlHRbJoMzkcxxr4g6kEsEZYDxTOkJgFDVrK2f0JWeCsuRo4O6gHUEifPFUjaAbHFBEO6zGbJP3W9rgkrK8zQF6i9G+aMbk7RiubC18kDTljlE8MgDhPaHBfAz0jHoEGNCAZShyti0sPLU8K8XDS+K+B8DVnqw0MhNFdT38dQKGFT7kQeUx4fOjqfpTjRzPoadIF5xcCLQNP5/cp20sXN0DQY8Ij4SwhMA3uoBEUbaR1ZJg0VLySi7HDiGLFtLKcku4UrKXHAoxunW4RE3E5PwSEuWkk/FSJ8VlMNir429+EXxQgKSlCKBRE9BiL+PEd6Jr02JlAU7Qs/V4eFr6v9bR/Y8xa92WWKUf0Pim0WnlrILVRPeTZtewxcgzJegUTG/jSRXiq8CgItUqWXV175bed1OCfzFmp1wSEE9EEqPcKP5fhOWvMLW7vKrCH6gZhhUepHmoJhfcoTios6KXF7qw/VLFZehdIJojvo5TPnMveTPD4jqc7cpc27M62HFIhj5mYkWWUB22AhX2kJGPeYr2eQ6mnUoKRpHJxeGeX4VeaH1qumW8NY01K0EJ5GDab9sh664ppkEs/Hl1/VQ+3qpl1ab/oP8x
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <44AEE7B47FB90E4FB62D8B8E9504F492@namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR15MB4104.namprd15.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: db04a914-bddd-4a26-8b4f-08d843aa3dd0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Aug 2020 19:09:33.2304 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 8ae927fe-1255-47a7-a2af-5f3a069daaa2
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JvXJHo5axNGoNFZUnNaduDZWliMeJPb9/p8SQlabley7c7lyWFA3TcMwJ/ATASK5
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR15MB2470
X-OriginatorOrg: fb.com
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-08-18_13:2020-08-18, 2020-08-18 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=fb_default_notspam policy=fb_default score=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=907 clxscore=1011 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008180132
X-FB-Internal: deliver
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/06YHaDRSB3iEcG6PNe8LNWgVDrY>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:10:02 -0000

Agreed-- at the point where someone has implemented QUIC over something else and wish to interoperate, then they can document what they did differently, and we could all learn from it!

-=R

On 8/18/20, 10:16 AM, "QUIC on behalf of Christian Huitema" <quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of huitema@huitema.net> wrote:

    On 8/18/2020 6:04 AM, Ian Swett wrote:

    > I don't believe anyone has implemented QUIC over anything besides UDP,
    > which makes me think it's too early to specify it..

    +1

    >
    > I'm also pretty risk averse and would agree with most of Martin's
    > points.  I'd support editorial changes that make the text a bit less
    > tightly coupled to UDP, and identification of design changes which
    > could be put into potential QUICv2 work, but I doubt I'd support any
    > design changes specific to this at this stage.

    Please leave the spec as Quic over UDP, because that's what we have
    developed and tested.

    If people want to run Quic over IPv6, ATM, or MPLS, or whatever else,
    they should first run an experiment, learn what works and what does not,
    and publish drafts describing problems and solutions. That is, running
    code instead of some theoretical exercise.

    >
    > Willy, I think it'd be very cool to see this run over UNIX dgram sockets.

    Sure. I also run QUIC over a simulated network as part of the picoquic
    test suite, without any actual UDP layer. Of course you can do that. But
    that's not the design goal of the WG. Let's not pollute the main spec.

    -- Christian Huitema

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email