Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Recovery to the Late-Stage Process
Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> Wed, 13 November 2019 00:42 UTC
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From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 16:42:12 -0800
Message-ID: <CAM4esxTYYJiPBgEdj278k2ZggZ_+D8CDd2rOjM14JRCLESowPg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Recovery to the Late-Stage Process
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
Cc: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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IMO the recovery draft is in the midst of a major revision dealing with the aftereffects of discarding the crypto timeout. Ian still has a bunch of stuff in flight for this. When all of those PRs land I would like to have a short period to review the working draft and see if it looks good. On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 7:40 AM Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote: > I'll also note that it's relatively easy from a spec perspective to allow > trailers to arrive before the end of the body, or to allow multiple sets of > trailers to arrive. I suspect most clients won't process trailers until > they have the body anyway, but the real question is what clients do with > multiple trailer sets. I'm not certain whether that's in our scope or not, > but that's a separate conversation. Feel free to open an issue for that > specific discussion. > > -----Original Message----- > From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:01 PM > To: Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com> > Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>; IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Recovery to the > Late-Stage Process > > Hi Roy, > > Responding to the parts relevant to this CfC. > > > On 7 Nov 2019, at 5:39 am, Roy T. Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com> wrote: > > > >> On Nov 5, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote: > >> > >> Previously, we've moved to the 'late-stage process' documented at [1] > for the Transport and TLS drafts. The chairs and editors now feel that it's > time to move the Recovery, HTTP/3, and QPACK drafts to that process as well. > >> > >> As before, this is because we're getting to a stage we feel the > documents would benefit from slower and slightly more formal process, so > that the rate of change is not so high, changes that do occur are > well-vetted, and the documents get closer to reflecting consensus in the > working group. > > > > I don't think that process has worked well for QUIC. > > Noted. > > > There are specific issues that are contentious enough to timebox and > > conclude, in a formal (and faster) fashion than was done before. > > That makes sense when needed for a specific issue. I don't know of any > > such issues for those three drafts. IOW, I don't know of any issues > > for which it makes sense for the Chairs to pre-empt the specification > > authors in deciding what can or cannot result in changes to the drafts > > just because of the timing of when the issue was raised. > > You misunderstand the process; the Chairs aren't pre-empting anything, the > group is attempting to agree to a path to completing this work. > > > The late-stage process seems to focus all of our energy into > > in/out-of-scope arguments rather than actual text in the specifications. > > I don't see any evidence for that claim; what makes you believe that? > > > The last interim spent easily twice as much time discussing process > > and process planning than it did HTTP/3. Prior interims were worse. > > We spent a day talking about transport and TLS, part of a morning talking > about planning the future of our work (if you want to call that "process > and process planning") and the bulk of the (longer) afternoon session > talking about H3. This isn't surprising, since our goal for the meeting was > to get the Transport and TLS documents close to finished. > > > I don't even recall the last time contents of the HTTP/3 spec being > > discussed on list, outside of very specific issues related to transport. > > I would like to see HTTP/3 written with HTTP in mind, not as a set of > > diffs against h2. > > That is by charter; we're largely limited to mapping H2 onto QUIC. > > > This is not a small undertaking, but it isn't a massive one either. > > Basically, import the bits of h2 that are necessary to explain > > HTTP/3's operation and intent, and then start referencing the > > http-core drafts instead of 723x. Yes, I know that is risky, but it is > the right thing to do. > > And it needs to be done before http-core is finished, since that > > effort exists largely to place the right content (in the right places) > > for > > HTTP/3 to reference. > > AIUI that is still our intent, and shouldn't be impeded by the late-stage > process, since that work should be editorial. > > > I have no idea what the status is with QPACK, but we should learn a > > lesson from the last time and make sure the fixed compression > > dictionary (if any) is based on traffic at more than one proxy or > > origin server. Or at least have each of the major deployments generate > > their local "best" encoding and do some cross-testing of the N choices > > (plus one or two based on a hand-crafted expert merge). > > > > I would like for HTTP/3 to have a mechanism for communicating metadata > > (like trailers) in mid-stream, both for requests (e.g., priority) and > > responses (e.g., chained sigs). That has been a design goal for HTTP > > since 1995 or so. HTTP/1.1 had it, albeit limited to chunked extensions. > > It has been proposed multiple times and keeps getting postponed > > because of "concern about scope". This is not a semantics issue (they > > are just optional trailers that arrive early) -- it is a multiplex > > framing issue (a new frame type and expectation to process). > > Where are the multiple proposals you refer to? We've been working on h3 > now for more than three years. If you submit them now, they'll be design > issues. > > I'd say that the Late-Stage process (or at least the proposal of adopting > it) is working exactly as intended here -- making people realise that if > they still have issues / changes that they want discussed, they need to > bring them to our attention now, not as we go to WGLC. > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > >
- Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Reco… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Ryan Hamilton
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham
- RE: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mike Bishop
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Ryan Hamilton
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham
- RE: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mike Bishop
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Ian Swett
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham