Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Recovery to the Late-Stage Process
Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> Mon, 18 November 2019 00:24 UTC
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References: <6A43BEC7-F9DE-40C9-BF70-BF1618EAFE01@mnot.net> <88BCFF39-6F9D-4E03-8787-561EECBBACE4@gbiv.com> <FD5201A5-C179-4302-B437-57561FB8DB24@mnot.net> <DM6PR22MB20101F0D1CC9867D5F3EE865DA740@DM6PR22MB2010.namprd22.prod.outlook.com> <CAM4esxTYYJiPBgEdj278k2ZggZ_+D8CDd2rOjM14JRCLESowPg@mail.gmail.com> <CAM4esxRXnWj_D==G2qLc39W+73xt+gw64qPxSbW=2RGyD_=wNw@mail.gmail.com> <CAKcm_gPJw3rNgTRCATN9==Nno4Q--X433r4LCjiGytr_VJ3pGg@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:24:21 +0800
Message-ID: <CAM4esxSmKDmkO+7rPRwnCSMk0jY4qho=CFAzV6MD-+-_Wf5biA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Recovery to the Late-Stage Process
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Cc: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com>
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OK, I apparently missed taht a few of these pushed to master. Yes, let's move for late-stage On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:39 PM Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote: > I'm not aware of anything important in-flight( :) ) for recovery. #3066 > <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3066> has been in the > editor's copy for over a week now, and did not quite make -24, so I would > recommend reading the editors copy. There is one handshake optimization PR( > #3080 <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3080>) and an alternate > solution to the amplification deadlock(#3162 > <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3162>), but neither is > critical in my opinion. > > There is a possibility of the discard keys conversation changing recovery, > though at least one solution(HANDSHAKE_DONE > <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>) does not require any > changes. If changes are required, I expect them to be ~2-3 sentences. > > On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 7:43 PM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Put another way, I think Gorry's planned review of draft-24 is probably >> premature. >> >> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 4:42 PM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> IMO the recovery draft is in the midst of a major revision dealing with >>> the aftereffects of discarding the crypto timeout. Ian still has a bunch of >>> stuff in flight for this. When all of those PRs land I would like to have a >>> short period to review the working draft and see if it looks good. >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 7:40 AM Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I'll also note that it's relatively easy from a spec perspective to >>>> allow trailers to arrive before the end of the body, or to allow multiple >>>> sets of trailers to arrive. I suspect most clients won't process trailers >>>> until they have the body anyway, but the real question is what clients do >>>> with multiple trailer sets. I'm not certain whether that's in our scope or >>>> not, but that's a separate conversation. Feel free to open an issue for >>>> that specific discussion. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:01 PM >>>> To: Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com> >>>> Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>; IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org> >>>> Subject: Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Recovery to >>>> the Late-Stage Process >>>> >>>> Hi Roy, >>>> >>>> Responding to the parts relevant to this CfC. >>>> >>>> > On 7 Nov 2019, at 5:39 am, Roy T. Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> On Nov 5, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Previously, we've moved to the 'late-stage process' documented at >>>> [1] for the Transport and TLS drafts. The chairs and editors now feel that >>>> it's time to move the Recovery, HTTP/3, and QPACK drafts to that process as >>>> well. >>>> >> >>>> >> As before, this is because we're getting to a stage we feel the >>>> documents would benefit from slower and slightly more formal process, so >>>> that the rate of change is not so high, changes that do occur are >>>> well-vetted, and the documents get closer to reflecting consensus in the >>>> working group. >>>> > >>>> > I don't think that process has worked well for QUIC. >>>> >>>> Noted. >>>> >>>> > There are specific issues that are contentious enough to timebox and >>>> > conclude, in a formal (and faster) fashion than was done before. >>>> > That makes sense when needed for a specific issue. I don't know of >>>> any >>>> > such issues for those three drafts. IOW, I don't know of any issues >>>> > for which it makes sense for the Chairs to pre-empt the specification >>>> > authors in deciding what can or cannot result in changes to the >>>> drafts >>>> > just because of the timing of when the issue was raised. >>>> >>>> You misunderstand the process; the Chairs aren't pre-empting anything, >>>> the group is attempting to agree to a path to completing this work. >>>> >>>> > The late-stage process seems to focus all of our energy into >>>> > in/out-of-scope arguments rather than actual text in the >>>> specifications. >>>> >>>> I don't see any evidence for that claim; what makes you believe that? >>>> >>>> > The last interim spent easily twice as much time discussing process >>>> > and process planning than it did HTTP/3. Prior interims were worse. >>>> >>>> We spent a day talking about transport and TLS, part of a morning >>>> talking about planning the future of our work (if you want to call that >>>> "process and process planning") and the bulk of the (longer) afternoon >>>> session talking about H3. This isn't surprising, since our goal for the >>>> meeting was to get the Transport and TLS documents close to finished. >>>> >>>> > I don't even recall the last time contents of the HTTP/3 spec being >>>> > discussed on list, outside of very specific issues related to >>>> transport. >>>> > I would like to see HTTP/3 written with HTTP in mind, not as a set of >>>> > diffs against h2. >>>> >>>> That is by charter; we're largely limited to mapping H2 onto QUIC. >>>> >>>> > This is not a small undertaking, but it isn't a massive one either.. >>>> > Basically, import the bits of h2 that are necessary to explain >>>> > HTTP/3's operation and intent, and then start referencing the >>>> > http-core drafts instead of 723x. Yes, I know that is risky, but it >>>> is the right thing to do. >>>> > And it needs to be done before http-core is finished, since that >>>> > effort exists largely to place the right content (in the right >>>> places) >>>> > for >>>> > HTTP/3 to reference. >>>> >>>> AIUI that is still our intent, and shouldn't be impeded by the >>>> late-stage process, since that work should be editorial. >>>> >>>> > I have no idea what the status is with QPACK, but we should learn a >>>> > lesson from the last time and make sure the fixed compression >>>> > dictionary (if any) is based on traffic at more than one proxy or >>>> > origin server. Or at least have each of the major deployments >>>> generate >>>> > their local "best" encoding and do some cross-testing of the N >>>> choices >>>> > (plus one or two based on a hand-crafted expert merge). >>>> > >>>> > I would like for HTTP/3 to have a mechanism for communicating >>>> metadata >>>> > (like trailers) in mid-stream, both for requests (e.g., priority) and >>>> > responses (e.g., chained sigs). That has been a design goal for HTTP >>>> > since 1995 or so. HTTP/1.1 had it, albeit limited to chunked >>>> extensions. >>>> > It has been proposed multiple times and keeps getting postponed >>>> > because of "concern about scope". This is not a semantics issue (they >>>> > are just optional trailers that arrive early) -- it is a multiplex >>>> > framing issue (a new frame type and expectation to process). >>>> >>>> Where are the multiple proposals you refer to? We've been working on h3 >>>> now for more than three years. If you submit them now, they'll be design >>>> issues. >>>> >>>> I'd say that the Late-Stage process (or at least the proposal of >>>> adopting it) is working exactly as intended here -- making people realise >>>> that if they still have issues / changes that they want discussed, they >>>> need to bring them to our attention now, not as we go to WGLC. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>>> >>>>
- Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Reco… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Ryan Hamilton
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham
- RE: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mike Bishop
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Ryan Hamilton
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham
- RE: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mike Bishop
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Ian Swett
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham