Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was Some comments/questions on RAW Architecture]
CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> Tue, 07 June 2022 15:29 UTC
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From: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2022 17:28:40 +0200
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To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "raw@ietf.org" <raw@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was Some comments/questions on RAW Architecture]
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Hi Rick, I do see value. Thanks, Carlos On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 9:11 PM Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote: > Hi Pascal, Lou, all, > > At the last IETF a formal interim on the RAW Architecture draft was > suggested, perhaps as the kickoff of more regular meetings. > > Obviously this has yet to happen; however, do you feel that there is value > in an interim in June to continue the valuable discussion on the document? > > If so, do you (Pascal) as an author want to suggest some times/dates that > work for you and we can hone in on a time of least inconvenience for the WG? > > Cheers, > Eve & Rick > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RAW [mailto:raw-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert > > (pthubert) > > Sent: 06 May 2022 15:44 > > To: Lou Berger; raw@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was Some > > comments/questions on RAW Architecture] > > > > Hello Lou > > > > > > > > The new text does 2 things: > > > > - use Lou's proposal with the exception of the explicit reference to > > > > TE > > > > > Why drop the reference? DetNet is built on TE, Raw is built on DetNet, > so > > > this means RAW is too. > > > > At the conceptual level, sure. In practice, there is an art of TE at the > IETF that > > we might or might not drag in RAW. > > For instance, the applicability and preferability of techs like of MPLS > and > > pseudowires on wireless needs to be demonstrated. > > It might be that the work done at IETF in the context of radios applies > better > > than the one done in the context of ISP networks. > > As this stage I do not want to take a position of where the solution > > components comes from, e.g., TEAS, 6TiSCH, ROLL, etc... and feel that > using > > TE is already a step there, but I might well be wrong on that. > > > > > > > > - Present this document as a data plane component to the RAW > > architecture, > > > more may come. > > > > > > > > Along the same line, should we change the title to something more > > focused > > > on the PSE or the OODA loop? > > > > I was referring to the title of the document "RAW architecture". > Depending > > on what RAW is going to do in the future, this may be only one piece of > the > > end result. So, isn't "RAW architecture" too wide as a name? Could it be > "the > > RAW OIODA Loop architecture" or something? > > > > All the best, > > > > Pascal > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> > > > Sent: vendredi 6 mai 2022 15:50 > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; raw@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was Some > > comments/questions on > > > RAW Architecture] > > > > > > Hi Pascal, > > > > > > I was hoping to see comments from others before responding... > > > > > > On 4/22/2022 9:50 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > > > Dear all; > > > > > > > > We did not discuss the below till IETF. > > > > > > > > I reread the second item (Lou's rewrite of the abstract) and suggest > the > > > following trade off: > > > > > > > > OLD > > > > Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) provides for high > reliability > > > > and availability for IP connectivity over a wireless medium. The > > > > wireless medium presents significant challenges to achieve > > > > deterministic properties such as low packet error rate, bounded > > > > consecutive losses, and bounded latency. This document defines > the > > > > RAW Architecture following an OODA loop that involves OAM, PCE, > PSE > > > > and PAREO functions. It builds on the DetNet Architecture and > > > > discusses specific challenges and technology considerations > needed to > > > > deliver DetNet service utilizing scheduled wireless segments and > > > > other media, e.g., frequency/time-sharing physical media > resources > > > > with stochastic traffic > > > > > > > > NEW > > > > > > > > Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) provides for high > reliability > > > > and availability for IP connectivity across any combination of > wired > > > > and wireless network segments. The RAW Architecture extends the > > > > DetNet Architecture and other standard IETF concepts and > mechanisms > > > > to adapt to the specific challenges of the wireless medium. This > > > > document defines an architecture element for the RAW data plane, > in > > > > the form of an OODA loop, that optimizes the use of constrained > > > > spectrum and energy while maintaining the expected connectivity > > > > properties. The loop involves OAM, PCE, and PREOF extensions, > and a > > > > new component called the Path Selection Engine (PSE). > > > > > > > > > > > > The new text does 2 things: > > > > - use Lou's proposal with the exception of the explicit reference to > > > > TE > > > Why drop the reference? DetNet is built on TE, Raw is built on DetNet, > so > > > this means RAW is too. > > > > - Present this document as a data plane component to the RAW > > architecture, > > > more may come. > > > > > > > > Along the same line, should we change the title to something more > > focused > > > on the PSE or the OODA loop? > > > > > > I'm don't follow these comments... > > > > > > > Keep safe; > > > > > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > FYI I missed your in-line comments below due to it all being quoted. > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > > >> Sent: lundi 21 mars 2022 15:20 > > > >> To: Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net) <lberger@labn.net>; raw@ietf.org > > > >> Subject: The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was Some > > > >> comments/questions on RAW Architecture] > > > >> > > > >> Dear Lou and all: > > > >> > > > >> Lou asked (more below): "1) What does the term "RAW" refer to in the > > > >> context of the architecture? > > > >> Is it a new/standalone set of mechanisms or is it an addition or an > > > >> extension, or a usage of IETF defined technologies?" > > > >> > > > >> <Pascal> > > > >> > > > >> Effectively we use "RAW Architecture" a but like if what we do here > > > >> is the alpha and omega to make wireless near deterministic when > we're > > > >> just providing a set DetNet extensions for OODA loop, and functions > > > >> more may come in the future. Should we call it "RAW OODA > > > >> Architecture" or something? > > > >> > > > >> </Pascal> > > > > > > I think having a tight definition of RAW and RAW architecture will be > useful > > > for the WG and users of RAW technologies. > > > > > > >> Lou also points out that the text staring at " It builds on the > > > >> DetNet Architecture" sounds evolutionary. > > > >> > > > >> <Pascal> > > > >> Evolution is key to survival, ask Covid. More seriously, we may be > > > >> hitting my non-native limits. I wish this architecture to be > foldable > > > >> into the DetNet family, even though it means that the family will > > > >> extend, which is neat in my book. So: > > > >> 1) how bad is evolutionary? Does that contradict the charter ? > > > >> 2) Should we use, e.g., "extends" as opposed to "builds on"? > > > >> > > > >> <Pascal> > > > >> > > > >> Finally Lou Proposes the following change: > > > >> > > > >> OLD > > > >> > > > >> It builds on the DetNet Architecture and > > > >> discusses specific challenges and technology considerations > needed > > to > > > >> deliver DetNet service utilizing scheduled wireless segments > and > > > >> other media, e.g., frequency/time-sharing physical media > resources > > > >> with stochastic traffic. > > > >> > > > >> Lou's PROPOSAL > > > >> > > > >> The RAW Architecture builds on the DetNet Architecture and > > > >> standard IETF Traffic Engineering concepts and mechanisms to > > > >> deliver service across any combination of wired and wireless > > > >> network segments. ... > > > >> > > > >> <Pascal> > > > >> > > > >> My 2 cents: > > > >> * Our charter builds on DetNet and MANET-DLEP, but not TEAS. > > > >> * We have not decided to extend TEAS but be inheritance from > DetNet. > > > It sounds like we actually agree, DetNet is built on TE, Raw is built > on > > > DetNet, so this means RAW is built on TE too. (Note I'm saying > > TE/technology > > > TEAS/Working group). > > > >> * I'm probably both biased and ill-informed, but I do believe > that the > > > >> work at 6TiSCH - which explicitly considered deterministic flows > over > > > >> one of our selected technologies (see RFC 9030 which BTW also > defines > > > >> the concept of a Track) - may be as good a base to build upon for > RAW > > > >> as other IETF work that roots in MPLS, fiber optics, and/or SP > networks. > > > >> * Whether we do use TEAS work, to which extent, or we do not, will > > > >> be documented in the framework once the WG settles on that, and we > > > >> certainly hope for your help doing that. > > > I agree, use of TEAS defined solutions is something to be defined / > worked > > > out. As above, RAW builds on Detnet, DetNet builds on TE, so stating > that > > > "RAW builds on IETF Traffic Engineering concepts" seems non- > > contentious. I'm > > > fine if you want to drop "and mechanisms". I think we have to be > equally > > > vigilant in ensuring that a 6TiSCH solution-bias isn't enshrined in the > > > Architecture. > > > >> * At the level of this document (architecture), I believe that the > > > >> core qualification is not how we'll do it but the fact that it will > > > >> have to support wireless segments and possibly non wireless segments > > > >> as well, with as a corollary that we selected wireless techs that > can > > > >> be scheduled to offer the expected guarantees. > > > > > > I suspect we agree on this. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > >> > > > >> All in all, I might have missed your point but I'd rather keep that > > > >> text as is. > > > >> > > > >> </Pascal> > > > >> > > > >> What do you all think? > > > >> > > > >> Pascal > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> > > > >> Sent: lundi 21 mars 2022 2:25 > > > >> To: draft-ietf-raw-architecture@ietf.org > > > >> Cc: RAW WG <raw@ietf.org> > > > >> Subject: Some comments/questions on RAW Architecture > > > >> > > > >> Pascal, Georgios, > > > >> > > > >> In looking to provide input on the framework document I realized I > > > >> had some basic questions on the architecture document. While I also > > > >> have more detailed comments/questions on the Architecture document, > > > >> I'll stick to the high level comments/questions here. Also, my > > > >> apologies for not getting them out sooner, but I figured it was > still > > > >> better to document here than just "at the mic" in tomorrow's > session. > > > >> > > > >> 1) What does the term "RAW" refer to in the context of the > architecture? > > > >> Is it a new/standalone set of mechanisms or is it an addition or an > > > >> extension, or a usage of IETF defined technologies? > > > >> > > > >> I find that reading the architecture, I'm really unsure. The > > > >> current working is a bit mixed, e.g., > > > >> > > > >> Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) provides for high > reliability > > > >> and availability for IP connectivity over a wireless medium. > > > >> > > > >> this sounds like something new/independent > > > >> > > > >> It builds on the DetNet Architecture and > > > >> discusses specific challenges and technology considerations > needed > > to > > > >> deliver DetNet service utilizing scheduled wireless segments > and > > > >> other media, e.g., frequency/time-sharing physical media > resources > > > >> with stochastic traffic. > > > >> > > > >> this sounds evolutionary. > > > >> > > > >> I was expecting the RAW WG to build on DetNet and other IETF Traffic > > > >> Engineering (TE) bodies of work. In other works something along the > > > >> lines > > > >> of: > > > >> > > > >> The RAW Architecture builds on the DetNet Architecture and > > > >> standard IETF Traffic Engineering concepts and mechanisms to > > > >> deliver service across any combination of wired and wireless > > > >> network segments. ... > > > >> > > > >> I think the document and the used terminology must be clear even > > > >> we're > > > >> (understandably) loose in the usage of the "RAW" term in our > > discussions. > > > >> > > > >> 2) Are RAW solutions limited to IPv6 and a limited set of wireless > > > >> technologies? I think the framework says/implies no, but the > > > >> architecture is less inclusive. e.g., > > > >> RAW provides DetNet elements that are specialized for IPv6 > flows > > > >> [IPv6] over selected deterministic radios technologies [RAW- > > TECHNOS]. > > > >> > > > >> I would expect that at least at the Architecture level that there > > > >> would be no exclusion of IETF networking technologies (including v4 > > > >> and MPLS) and any SDO-defined wireless technology. I certainly > > > >> understand needing to focus and prioritize work on specific > > > >> technologies, but that is practical choice not a limitation that > should be > > > codified in the architecture. > > > >> > > > >> Somewhat related, but of less importance, it's probably worth > > > >> mentioning that RAW forwards/switches at the IP, not link layer. > > > >> > > > >> 3) How do tracks differ from TE protection paths? > > > >> > > > >> In reading the definition of the tracks, the term seems quite > > > >> aligned/similar to TE protection paths and segments. Keep in mind > > > >> that DetNet PREOF is just one form of service restoration supported > > > >> in IETF TE, i.e., the 1+1 form. A track reads to me to be something > > > >> that can be composed or combine 1:1, 1:N and even 1+N, and have > > > >> interesting > > > >> (uncoordinated) protection switching based on actual network/link > > > >> (channel) state. I suspect we can accomplish the same objectives as > > > >> Tracks and stay consistent with existing DetNet and TE(AS) > terminology. > > > >> > > > >> 4) Is RAW limited to PCE-based centralized solutions? > > > >> > > > >> DetNet introduced the term Controller Plane to cover all types of > > > >> control supported by the IETF TE architecture, i.e., fully > > > >> centralized, fully distributed, or any hybrid combination of > > > >> centralized/distributed control. The Architecture reads as > > > >> supporting only one combination of - PCE for paths, PSEs for tracks > > > >> (aka protection segments) . PSEs read as also doing the actual > > > >> protection switching, but this is outside the scope of this comment. > > > >> > > > >> Hereto, I see no reason for the architecture to limit the scope of > > > >> the Controller Plan solutions that could be standardized as part of > > > >> RAW. (Yes PCE-based approaches are likely the first to be > > > >> standardized, but that's not an architecture level decision.) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Those are my top comments. While substantive, I suspect addressing > > > >> these comments will result in some refactoring and rewording -- but > > > >> not a major change to the document. > > > >> > > > >> Thank you, and speak to you soon. (Unfortunately, just virtually > this > > > >> meeting...) > > > >> > > > >> Lou > > > >> > > -- > > RAW mailing list > > RAW@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw >
- [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was Some … Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was S… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was S… Lou Berger
- Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was S… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was S… Rick Taylor
- Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was S… CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO
- Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was S… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] The term RAW in RAW Architecture [was S… Xavi Vilajosana Guillen