[Rfced-future] Appeal: Apparent IAB approval/foregone conclusion of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.txt
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 05 March 2022 18:19 UTC
Return-Path: <john-ietf@jck.com>
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952373A0975; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 10:19:02 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.907
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id coVgueQ1eOTU; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 10:18:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6044A3A0977; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 10:18:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from <john-ietf@jck.com>) id 1nQYzT-000JAC-Mw; Sat, 05 Mar 2022 13:18:51 -0500
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 13:18:46 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: IAB@iab.org
cc: Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch>, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <6C9A97B9C0031D06798E32E1@PSB>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==========88800483117D57E553E2=========="
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/_0XYPRqWeS7S0XBe2ajIp0r4N48>
Subject: [Rfced-future] Appeal: Apparent IAB approval/foregone conclusion of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program <rfced-future.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/rfced-future>, <mailto:rfced-future-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rfced-future/>
List-Post: <mailto:rfced-future@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rfced-future-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>, <mailto:rfced-future-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 18:19:03 -0000
IAB, The announcement of your agenda [1] was sent out within the two hours before I started writing this note. draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.txt was posted well under 24 hours ago. Yet the agenda says, as a document update report: "Approved for publication: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12" While I have every hope that some version of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model will be able to be approved by the IAB before the open meeting on March 24, a note from the Editor refers to a "next version" and a note from the Program co-chair suggests further review within the Program. The latter is included below, with the announcement detailed elided, and includes a copy of the former. If the IAB knew in advance exactly when -12 would be posted, scheduled an emergency meeting immediately after that time, and reviewed and approved it, why was the Program (and especially the Editor and Co-chairs not informed of that so we could stop wasting our time on further reviews and improvements? Of course, if the IAB did that review, or even a review of -11, and concluded that any additional issues could be sorted out at AUTH48, that would go directly to the importance of the recent Program discussion of what should or should not be allowed at AUTH48, at least without further community review. The Program has apparently concluded that AUTH48 details or restrictions should be left for future work but, if the IAB intends to push new material in -12 and anything that might appear in any future I-D versions off to that process, it would probably justify reopening that discussion and perhaps focusing it more on non-IETF WG documents. If, as I hope was the case, the inclusion of "-12" in the Agenda was just an editing error, and the IAB simply intended to report on the approval of some version of the I-D, it still seems to me inappropriate to announce approval of a document neither the IAB nor the community have had a chance to review, and, if it is not -12 even a chance to see, unless the IAB intends to accept whatever the Program produces without discussion, even discussion of key oversight issues about the process (see below). The IAB is supposed to be responsible for the output of its Programs; I hope that responsibility is being taken seriously. In addition: (i) draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter is connected with the "RFC Editor Model" document but obviously interacts with the IAB and its activities. Does the IAB intend to tell the community how it expects to handle that document and would not at least an announcement to that effect be appropriate during the Open Meeting? In particular, the Agenda indicates that the Program will be closed as soon is draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model is published. Should any of the other documents now being discussed as part of the Program, that Charter revision included, not be finished and published with or before the RFC Editor Model, would they then be abandoned? Some additional explanation be in order. If all of that will be covered comprehensively in the (I assume forthcoming) IAB report and at the Plenary, and is not worth mentioning as part of the Open Meeting Agenda, why not save a few more minutes and eliminate the Status Update from the Open Meeting agenda entirely? (ii) Watching the mailing list for the Program over the last (nearly two) years, doing a very quick review of the mail archive, and remembering the discussions that led to the Program's creation, suggests that this work -- which is more than a collection of administrative and procedural changes but might affect the entire community and the broader perceptions and future effectiveness of the IETF (and IAB and IRTF)-- has been reviewed and contributed to by a tiny fraction of that community (or even the number of people registered for IETF 113 as of the last report on registrations) despite the great commitment of the leadership and by several of those involved (demonstrated by their extensive postings). For IETF Working Groups and documents --on which the Program's work process was modeled-- one important function of the IESG review, even if it rarely mentioned explicitly, is to ensure that a standards track document has been reviewed widely enough by parties who might be affected. Does the IAB intend to consider the implications of the relatively narrow participation in the WG and the fairly narrow range of perspectives the participants represent? Will that analysis be presented to the community or does the IAB intend to simply approve and announce the Program's outputs without such consideration? And if there is a presentation of the decision, will that done in a way that is broadly available, made part of the record, and, if necessary, subject to a further appeal? Actions requested by this appeal: (1) Do not approve, or announce that you are going to approve, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model (or any version of it), or any other document under discussion in the Program, before the Program has concluded its work. (2) If the IAB intends to approve whatever the Program produces without doing its own critical review of both the document(s) and the process, particularly the breadth of participation in forming the Program consensus, announce that to the community and put it on the agenda for discussion at the Plenary and/or the Open Meeting, making sure there is time for such a discussion. (3) If the IAB believes that these issue deserve more open discussion with a potentially broader community than the Plenary and Open Meeting agenda would allow for, either schedule an additional meeting session during IETF or schedule an online open workshop to be held before approval. If the latter, use the same kinds of broad outreach that draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model contemplates for potentially-significant changes... noting that this is the most potentially-significant set of changes made to the RFC Editor Function since its beginnings (as described in RFC 8700). Please note that none of the above requests changes in either the model document nor in the way the Program has operated. I think it is appropriate that we be at least as careful with how the process is concluded and the documents approved as the community has been in its creation and progress so far. thanks, john [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/agenda-113-iabopen-01 ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Saturday, March 5, 2022 13:41 +0100 From: Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>, rfced-future@iab.org Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.txt Thank you Peter. Please note that there are a good number of changes made. I don't think these changes substantially change the consensus established within the group, but people should review them for themselves. Eliot On 05.03.22 04:09, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Hi all, this version is my attempt to incorporate all feedback > received during the IAB's community call for comments. If I > have missed anything, please post to the rfced-future@iab.org > list and I will make the appropriate fixes in the next > version. > > Thanks! > > Peter > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.txt > Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 19:05:19 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> > > > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.txt > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and > posted to the IETF repository. > > Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Revision: 12 > Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) > Document date: 2022-03-05 > Group: iab > Pages: 32 [...] ---------- End Forwarded Message ----------
--- Begin Message ---Thank you Peter. Please note that there are a good number of changes made. I don't think these changes substantially change the consensus established within the group, but people should review them for themselves. Eliot On 05.03.22 04:09, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Hi all, this version is my attempt to incorporate all feedback > received during the IAB's community call for comments. If I have > missed anything, please post to the rfced-future@iab.org list and I > will make the appropriate fixes in the next version. > > Thanks! > > Peter > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.txt > Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 19:05:19 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> > > > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.txt > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Revision: 12 > Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) > Document date: 2022-03-05 > Group: iab > Pages: 32 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ > Html: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12.html > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12 > > Abstract: > This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. The Model > defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. First, > policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series > Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC > Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. Second, > policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC > Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF > Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). In addition, > various responsibilities of the "RFC Editor Function" are now > performed alone or in combination by the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, RFC Series > Consulting Editor (RSCE), and IETF LLC. Finally, this document > establishes the Editorial Stream for publication of future policy > definition documents produced through the processes defined herein. > > This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, > RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > >-- Rfced-future mailing list Rfced-future@iab.org https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future--- End Message ---
- [Rfced-future] Appeal: Apparent IAB approval/fore… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] Appeal: Apparent IAB approval/… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Rfced-future] Appeal: Apparent IAB approval/… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Appeal: Apparent IAB app… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Appeal: Apparent IAB app… Mirja Kuehlewind