RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s)
"Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB)" <lars-erik.jonsson@ericsson.com> Fri, 03 December 2004 18:35 UTC
Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16917 for <rohc-web-archive@ietf.org>; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:35:15 -0500 (EST)
Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaIMX-0007E5-Vo for rohc-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:41:17 -0500
Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaFIs-0004iG-8E; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:25:02 -0500
Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaEnA-00079r-Us for rohc@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 09:52:17 -0500
Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11745 for <rohc@ietf.org>; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:52:15 -0500 (EST)
Received: from penguin.ericsson.se ([193.180.251.47]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaEsu-0005IH-DD for rohc@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 09:58:14 -0500
Received: from esealmw143.al.sw.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.118]) by penguin.ericsson.se (8.12.10/8.12.10/WIREfire-1.8b) with ESMTP id iB3EqDh5017663 for <rohc@ietf.org>; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:52:13 +0100 (MET)
Received: from esealnt612.al.sw.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.118]) by esealmw143.al.sw.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:52:13 +0100
Received: by esealnt612.al.sw.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <XVCVQKBB>; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:52:13 +0100
Message-ID: <A943FD84BD9ED41193460008C7918050072E99C9@ESEALNT419.al.sw.ericsson.se>
From: "Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB)" <lars-erik.jonsson@ericsson.com>
To: "'zhigang.c.liu@nokia.com'" <zhigang.c.liu@nokia.com>, cabo@tzi.org
Subject: RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:52:09 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2004 14:52:13.0574 (UTC) FILETIME=[ACA6E260:01C4D947]
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7
Cc: rohc@ietf.org, "Ghyslain Pelletier (LU/EAB)" <ghyslain.pelletier@ericsson.com>
X-BeenThere: rohc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: Robust Header Compression <rohc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rohc>, <mailto:rohc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:rohc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rohc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rohc>, <mailto:rohc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: rohc-bounces@ietf.org
Errors-To: rohc-bounces@ietf.org
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Scan-Signature: b132cb3ed2d4be2017585bf6859e1ede
> > 1) What was discussed during the development of 3095 in 1999-2000? > > I've provided emails on ROHC mailing list where Mickael and I > discussed about the synchronization of the slope. The conclusion > was that compression starts with default-slope and then use > "learned slope" if default-slope is not good. Video example > was discussed as one reason for that. It was also clear that > slope is a separate concept from TS_STRIDE, which is a scale > factor. Yes, a few e-mails were found that discussed this conceptually, but, as also reflected in RFC 3095, all the details needed to potentially get this to work was not at all nailed down. What can be found in the archives does not make it clear what the actual outcome was, as is also reflected in 3095 where "slope-ing" was never really defined. > 2) What was 3095 intended to say, back in 2000? > > Above was what 3095 intended to say, in my opinion. My conclusion is that there was no consistent consensus on this issue, and the details were never worked out. > 3) What is 3095 really saying? > > As result of above and other discussions: > > - Section 3.4 describe the function from SN to other fields X. Yes, and scaling forms the SN-to-TS function through TS_STRIDE (explicit) and TS_OFFSET (implicit). No mentioning of any implicitly learned slope. > - Section 4.3.1.3 describes the function SN->X and SO state. Yes, the "other fields based on SN"-principle is mentioned here, but nothing about any implicitly learned slope. > - Section 4.5.3 defines the scaling of TS before compression. > Note: scaling and thus TS_STRIDE is optional. While WLSB is > not. Neither is SO state. It should be self-evident that > TS_STRIDE is not the slope. If there is no function defined, there is no function, that's it. No mentioning of implicitly learned slopes here either. > - Section 5.2.7 describes the function SN->X and packet types/formats. There is nothing here that talks about implicitly learned slopes. E.g. the Packet type 2 text rather indicates that functions are established explicitly, e.g. with UOR-2. > - Section 5.5.1.2 describes the slope This is the only place where slope is actually mentioned, and this is an R-mode section only. This is the only part one can interpret as if there was a generally applicable slope concept, but nothing talks about implicit methods to establish parameters. One can rather interpret this as a way to generally describe functions like the TS scaling method, which is the only method that is defined to use an implicitly established parameter. > - Section 5.7 defines the value of default-slope. Yes, and without any definition of either slope or default_slope, this just creates confusion. > 4) How can 3095 be interpreted? As you use to say, "I get speechless". Do you really mean that you think the text pieces in 3095 defines implicitly learned slopes and all the principles needed to get this to work and interoperate? > 5) Now 2004, which solution do we think makes most sense, technically? > > I'm a bit confused, and this is the difficulty I have. What is the > question in this discussion: a) learned slope or even slope doesn't > ever exist in 3095? b) even if it exists, we can re-evaluate and > decide to remove it (what is implied above)? What is implied is that whatever we do, we must ensure we have an understanding of the alternatives we are discussing. It is clear that the RFC is ambiguous and in practice impossible to create interoperable implementations from. Considering that what is actually in the RFC is the basis we will build on, not the ideas from some authors that were never nailed down and thus not captured in the RFC, what we technically think about the alternatives today and their relation to what is described in 3095 will indeed be very important when deciding on what elaboration/clarification to provide to implementers. > 6) Now 2004, which solution would make most sense if we consider 3)? > > See above. Considering the complexity of the implicitly learned slope mechanism, the fact that it does not at all exist in 3095, it seems like most people agree it is not what we should now add to 3095 profiles. > 7) How do we realize 6) in the implementers guide to ensure > interoperability? > > I think we haven't reached this yet. Agree, but we seem to be going towards defining two different proposals, and that might help in deciding upon 6). /L-E _______________________________________________ Rohc mailing list Rohc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rohc
- [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB)
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Ghyslain Pelletier (LU/EAB)
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Carsten Bormann
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB)
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Kristofer Sandlund
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Carsten Bormann
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Carsten Bormann
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Lars-Erik Jonsson
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Kristofer Sandlund
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB)
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB)
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB)
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Carsten Bormann
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Lars-Erik Jonsson
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Kristofer Sandlund
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB)
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu
- Re: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) Carsten Bormann
- RE: [rohc] The discussion on slope(s) zhigang.c.liu